EJ22E rebuild, and secret O-rings

[bosango]

Greetings all! I come here from a long history of driving VWs and, of course, rebuilding their engines. It's nice to see that there's a good support community among the Suby crowd. Maybe it's a mid-life crisis, but I'm selling my last VW and just picked up a very nice '93 Legacy with a well-running leakless engine and a knock on the #3 cylinder. I'm planning on taking it to bits soon and replacing, at the very least, the crank and rod bearings, and rings, as long as I'm there. Of course, I'll check all the clearances and wear limits and all that nonsense to make sure everything is reasonably reusable. This being my first Suby rebuild, I have some questions:

1) On the diagrams in the factory manual, there appear to be a few O-rings between the block halves. Are these available separately and, if so, from where?

2) I've read all the warnings about replacing the rear seal. Does this still hold true if the case is opened? I mean, it's going to fall out anyway so why not replace it?

3) Is it really necessary to replace the head gaskets? I know the purists will say this must be done, but it sort of goes against my VW ways where it's almost a badge of honor to reuse parts until they completely fall apart (a little copper spray = good as new?). The rocker and head assemblies seem to be in fine shape so I was just planning on leaving them be.

4) I'll follow the proper procedure to remove the pistons, but I'm wondering why the halves can't be pulled apart with the pistons still connected. Is there just too much friction there, or too much of a risk of gouging the case?

5) Why did I wait so long to get a Subaru?

[GeneralDisorder]

Welcome! You'll find out quick that this isn't a VW - but that's a good thing in the opinion of most here.

First of all - what is this knock? Are you *sure* you have it diagnosed correctly? The engine in your car is known to be reliable and mechanical-failure free for typically in the range of 300k+ miles...... I've spoke with numerous Subaru Master Tech's that have *never* seen an EJ22 with less than 300k and a major mechanical failure (that wasn't due to running it without oil).

I would tend to *not* rebuild the EJ22's as they are so easy to come by for dirt cheap and last such a long time that it's rarely worth the effort.

Originally Posted by bosango

1) On the diagrams in the factory manual, there appear to be a few O-rings between the block halves. Are these available separately and, if so, from where?

They can be purchased seperately from the Subaru dealer and I would reccomend no other place. They are inexpensive and you want the best for seals that are that far in.

Originally Posted by bosango

2) I've read all the warnings about replacing the rear seal. Does this still hold true if the case is opened? I mean, it's going to fall out anyway so why not replace it?

Absolutely replace it if you are splitting the case. The cautions are for those that are replacing them without dissasembly.

Originally Posted by bosango

3) Is it really necessary to replace the head gaskets? I know the purists will say this must be done, but it sort of goes against my VW ways where it's almost a badge of honor to reuse parts until they completely fall apart (a little copper spray = good as new?). The rocker and head assemblies seem to be in fine shape so I was just planning on leaving them be.

Yes - this isn't VW land and they will be nasty and destroyed comming off. Remember these seal coolant passages and they are graphite impregnated metal head gaskets. Besides the fire ring not sealing after being crushed, the coolant passages will have their way with the graphite and it will be a yummy mess - half of the gasket material will be stuck to the heads and block. They must be replaced every time. Sorry. They are installed DRY - no sealant of any kind - no spray, no goop, NOTHING.

Originally Posted by bosango

4) I'll follow the proper procedure to remove the pistons, but I'm wondering why the halves can't be pulled apart with the pistons still connected. Is there just too much friction there, or too much of a risk of gouging the case?

The main bearings are in the way. The EJ engines have 5 of them. The pistons cannot be inserted from the bottom nor can they be removed from that direction. It's much too fiddly to try and undo the rod bolts. With a water cooled block there is no access from the bottom or the top to the bearing cavity.

Originally Posted by bosango

5) Why did I wait so long to get a Subaru?

That's tough to say - I know a few VW fanatics and I've known a couple that bought a Subaru to steal the engine from but liked it so much they just kept it. I've coverted a few Baja bug folks to Subaru's - 4WD with independent suspension is very tempting....

You made the right move and the '93 you have is the BEST possible one to start with. They are so incredibly easy to work on and really amazingly reliable. I just bought a '91 for $250 on craigslist, drove it home.... replaced a single failed injector (215k on it) and been driving it all day today. Simply amazing.

They occasionally need attention in order to be in top-tier condition, but really they will rarely strand you somewhere.

GD

[hankosolder2]

Two thoughts:

These engines are inexpensive and, in 2.2L form, exceptionally long lived. Have you considered a junkyard or used JDM engine? You can probably buy a complete used engine, do the seals, waterpump, T-belt, etc for about what spend fixing the rod-knocking one you own- and get 100K more miles out of the used engine. Of course, if you really want to tear it down and get down to the nitty-gritty because it's a fun /educational challenge, more power to you sir! I can totally respect that.

You really, really don't want to re use head gaskets on these cars. They are designed to crush. Remember, there are coolant passages near the combustion chamber... so it's got to keep the compression in the cylinder, pass oil and coolant through to the heads and keep all those things from mixing at extreme temps and pressures.

I'll leave the other Q's to those more knowledgable than I.

[hankosolder2]

Ah, General Disorder, you got there first. What he said!

[bosango]

Thanks Dr. Disorder, all great advice! As for the #3 bearings... When I first got the car it had terrible lifter noise on the right side (being a VW type, I know all about lifter noise). I took out the VLAs, cleaned them, pumped them back up, and put them back in. They went flat again in about 10 minutes. Thanks to advise from this forum, I replaced that little O-ring behind the oil pump (it was in bad shape), as well as cleaned out the rocker arm shaft and all the arm holes. That fixed the lifter problem just fine, but it made it possible to hear the knock. The knock gets much quieter if I disconnect the #3 injector. So, I figure maybe it wasn't getting enough oil back there on account of the wanked out O-ring and that may have led to the bearing problem. One of the guys from the local Subaru repair specialist shop took a listen, throttled it up a bit, and said it sure sounded like a rod bearing to him.

Now what's this about never being stranded somewhere? That's something I'm going to have to get used to. Along with heat, speed, power, not having to scream above the engine noise, not getting pulled over driving through Utah in a hippiemobile...

[Mugs]

Some will tell you that you have to take out the wirst pins via thes holes in the ends of the block. That is a a major major major pain and I have never been successful at it. The way to split the case is start to sperate it until it gets "floppy" then just start taking off the rod bolts (keeping them in order of course) untill you have the pistons disconecte from one side of the block. Pull the half off and then the rest is easy as pie.

Or you can save yourself a whole lot of head ache and go to your local JY and get an engine out of a car (they go for about 125 here) and then buy the re-seal and timing kits from eother e-bay or other reputable sites mentioned on this forum (you be out about (300 buck tops for everything tbelt kit, pulleys, h20 pump, and seals)

Then if you want to "see" how subies are put together save the old block and tear it down later.

P.S. I was a vw guy for twenty years..now I frikin hate the things and wonder why I ever messed with them. This hate came in part buy me having to work on them professionally and watching them get worked on for about a year or so.

[Gloyale]

Welcome.

Good for you for wanting to do a rebuild.

I am tired of all the "just toss in a JDM or JY motor" talk. In my opinion it is a VERY short sighted solution, and a gamble at best.

The BEST option is a rebuild.

Get the large coolant passage O-ring (the orange one, special rubber for coolant) from Subaru. The other 3 o-rings are the same size, and can be standard black rubber just make sure to get a proper diameter and thickness.

Definately get yourself a 14mm Hex head (allen) type socket, 1/2 drive prefferably, to remove the wrist pin access caps. And then, fashion a long hook out of rod stock, and attach a slide hammer to it to pull the wrist pins(after removing the circlip of course)

Originally Posted by mugs

Some will tell you that you have to take out the wirst pins via thes holes in the ends of the block. That is a a major major major pain and I have never been successful at it. The way to split the case is start to sperate it until it gets "floppy" then just start taking off the rod bolts (keeping them in order of course) untill you have the pistons disconecte from one side of the block. Pull the half off and then the rest is easy as pie.

You simply don't have the correct tool (stiff hook, slide hammer, cool head and patience)

Have you actually rebuilt one and put it back toghether into a running engine that way....? And if you have, did you warn the poor fool that's driving that car now?

It is possible to split the halves, unbolt 2 of the rod caps and then seperate, but it is a hassle. I ONLY ever had to resort to this when trying to disassemble a block that has spun cylinder liners blocking the access holes.

You need actual 12mm swivel sockets, not just the extension to use with a regular socket) Additionally, you can only get to one of the bolts on each cap, then you have to force the halves back toghether(hoping the bearings haven't shifted and no crud got in them) and rotate it 180 to get the other ones.

Splitting them that way is hard enough........I wouldn't even consider putting one toghether that way. It would not be possible to completely ensure a proper assembly and sealing.

[Mugs]

Well There GLoyale I am not going to argue with you. I had the block spit in about 15 min via undoing the rod bolts. I could not even get to retainer ring on the far side with my longest (Mac Python plires) but I can and understand how it is done. And my sole purpose was to get the crank out for a template/ R & D. So no I did not have the "proper tool" (imagine that a profesional mechanic w/o the right tool) then again when your on flat rate you don't get paid/ it cost the customer more the rebild the motor then to just R &R it. Any way some day I would like to try and re-build a moter just for yucks but this was my own personal thing and I was just experimenting and making stuff that I neded the crank out for.

[torxxx]

A naturally Aspirated 2.2L is not worth rebuilding. When you are all said and done rebuilding it shortblock up, you could have bought 3 or 4 used 2.2L's from the junkyard.

theres a reason why not very many ppl rebuild the EJ22 and EA82's. There is a million of them around the world and they are dirt cheap

And not to mention some of the questions you've asked about reusing gaskets and seals.... if you are going to half ass a rebuild, its not worth doing. if you are going to split the case, might as well do new pistons/rings/rods/main bearings/wristpins, have the cylinders re-honed. Go all out, or nothing at all

[GeneralDisorder]

Originally Posted by bosango

Thanks Dr. Disorder, all great advice! As for the #3 bearings... When I first got the car it had terrible lifter noise on the right side (being a VW type, I know all about lifter noise). I took out the VLAs, cleaned them, pumped them back up, and put them back in. They went flat again in about 10 minutes. Thanks to advise from this forum, I replaced that little O-ring behind the oil pump (it was in bad shape), as well as cleaned out the rocker arm shaft and all the arm holes. That fixed the lifter problem just fine, but it made it possible to hear the knock. The knock gets much quieter if I disconnect the #3 injector. So, I figure maybe it wasn't getting enough oil back there on account of the wanked out O-ring and that may have led to the bearing problem. One of the guys from the local Subaru repair specialist shop took a listen, throttled it up a bit, and said it sure sounded like a rod bearing to him.

I concur. Given the oil pressure problem (probably due to lack of maintenance) and the fact that it's ALWAYS the #3 rod bearing that goes first in Subaru engines..... I would say you have a good handle on the source of the knock. That's a rare beast to find an EJ22 rod knock - you "got lucky"

Originally Posted by bosango

Now what's this about never being stranded somewhere? That's something I'm going to have to get used to. Along with heat, speed, power, not having to scream above the engine noise, not getting pulled over driving through Utah in a hippiemobile...

I totally get the draw of the air-cooled concept, and for their time they were amazing machines. Definitely the right technology for the target market..... 1930's Germany .

Properly maintained, it's hard to get stranded in a Subaru. Mostly that means take care of the timing belts at the proper interval (and the new belts for the EJ22's are 105k interval so not a real chore - three whole times in the life of the engine), and the cooling system. You'll kill a water cooled engine pretty fast if you have a poorly maintained cooling system. On all the used rigs I buy - especially the higher mileage one's - I go down to the dealer and have them order me EVERY SINGLE hose on the car. It's worth the insurance..... I have been stranded more times in Subaru's for blown heater core hoses, tiny manifold coolant hoses, and similar problems than ANY other reason. I've had timing belts give out on me twice (never on an EJ though), and I've blown a couple water pumps. All of these failures were on cars I bought with unknown maintenance history and just started driving - I took the gamble and still do often enough..... I have AAA because I buy and sell a lot of Subaru's and that means driving a lot of unknowns.

Originally Posted by Gloyale

I am tired of all the "just toss in a JDM or JY motor" talk. In my opinion it is a VERY short sighted solution, and a gamble at best.

I respect that opinion for sure, but one has to consider a couple points in favor of the other side of the coin:

1. A lot of folks aren't capable of doing a rebuild or can't afford it.

2. The downtime is considerable compared to a swap.

3. A swap can allow you to rebuild the original at your leisure.

4. If you do it right you can minimize the risk. Buy a wrecked donor with low mileage/maintenance history or do a compression and leak-down test of the replacement as well as a reseal including the head gaskets which allows you to fully inspect the cylinders..... and definitely get a warantee if you buy one off a shelf. At any rate I don't think it's fair to NOT consider this option as it is satisfactory for many folks - often the car's these engines are going into are near or over 200k miles - if you get another 100k from a used engine the car is likely finished anyway. By that point so many things are worn out that it's not often cost effective to repair them. Gen 1 Legacy's aren't worth the dollar amount required to rebuild their engines - I can buy two or more whole running cars for what a single quality rebuild would cost.

Again - in an ideal world I completely agree that it's not the *right* way to fix the problem. But most of us drive around in car's that have *something* wrong with them - maybe several something's. And one must consider what he is doing to the great "economy" perspective of owning/driving a gen 1 Legacy at the same time that he is wishing to do the right thing for the car..... I would assert that the right thing for a sub-$1000 car is ALWAYS to replace a bad engine with a used one. That is the only sensible approach if you consider all the angles - anything more would be throwing away time and money on something that will never return the investment.

That whole argument hinges on the EJ22 being a super-reliable engine though and if it weren't for that..... well the car's wouldn't be on the road anymore and I sure as $hit wouldn't be driving one so I don't suppose that's really a valid angle either..... I simply am having a hard time seeing it any other way

GD