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Rust repair (A "I hate New England themed thread")


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31 replies to this topic

#1 hatchsub

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 04:09 PM

Well seeing as how my car was getting rustier and rustier i made the wise move to invest in a welder. This will be the first of many posts in this thread as i go and fix more and more rust on this thing. This post is covering the start to finish of the dogleg section of the car (right in front of the drivers side rear tire).

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#2 TheSubaruJunkie

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 04:15 PM

WOW STEVE!!! GREAT JOB!

I was scared when I saw the first few pix, but it turned out awesome!

#3 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 04:49 PM

First - excelent attention to detail. The result turned out good.

Second - you need to do some practicing with your welder. I can help some, but a lot of it is going to be down to practice. Perhaps if you have some older fenders or some other sheet metal around you could set up some practice welds. I have some sugestions and some questions for you.

1. What's your setup? 110v? 220v? Flux-core (FCAW)? Gas (GMAW)?, and what size wire are you running?

2. The biggest change you need to make is that both peices to be welded need to be CLEAN shiny metal. You are burning off a lot of paint and other junk by the looks of the black smokey residue on there. A $5 wire wheel in your drill or a wire "cup" wheel in your grinder will do wonders for your weld quality. Make sure you have clean metal where your ground clamp is attached too.

3. It will be much easier to patch sheet metal if you overlap the edges. That gives you twice the thickness to work with and you will be able to run hotter without burning through. In the end you are just going to grind it or pound it flat and apply filler anyway.

4. If you are using flux-cored wire you need to get to a point where you can run a decently solid bead rather than the "hundreds of tack welds" method you are using (overlapping your patch will help). That's not a bad method per-se if you are running with a gas bottle and a large welder (sometimes they only way if the machine is very large), but with the flux-core you will have a ton of slag inclusions if you don't keep the puddle from solidifiying like that.

Anyway - tell us what you have and we'll get you straight. Check out www.weldingweb.com as well. Lots of good information and knowledge in the forums there.

GD

#4 hatchsub

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 04:51 PM

Yea that was the worst section on the whole car. I need to fix the areas behind both rear wheels and the other side right in front of the passenger wheel. And thanks for the complement. Remind me to never make a dogleg again!!! Oh and i cheated too. Every single piece of patchwork i welded in is from a spare camaro fender lol.

#5 hatchsub

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 04:55 PM

First - excelent attention to detail. The result turned out good.

Second - you need to do some practicing with your welder. I can help some, but a lot of it is going to be down to practice. Perhaps if you have some older fenders or some other sheet metal around you could set up some practice welds. I have some sugestions and some questions for you.

1. What's your setup? 110v? 220v? Flux-core (FCAW)? Gas (GMAW)?, and what size wire are you running?

2. The biggest change you need to make is that both peices to be welded need to be CLEAN shiny metal. You are burning off a lot of paint and other junk by the looks of the black smokey residue on there. A $5 wire wheel in your drill or a wire "cup" wheel in your grinder will do wonders for your weld quality. Make sure you have clean metal where your ground clamp is attached too.

3. It will be much easier to patch sheet metal if you overlap the edges. That gives you twice the thickness to work with and you will be able to run hotter without burning through. In the end you are just going to grind it or pound it flat and apply filler anyway.

4. If you are using flux-cored wire you need to get to a point where you can run a decently solid bead rather than the "hundreds of tack welds" method you are using (overlapping your patch will help). That's not a bad method per-se if you are running with a gas bottle and a large welder (sometimes they only way if the machine is very large), but with the flux-core you will have a ton of slag inclusions if you don't keep the puddle from solidifiying like that.

Anyway - tell us what you have and we'll get you straight. Check out www.weldingweb.com as well. Lots of good information and knowledge in the forums there.

GD

Im using a Hobart 140 mig and using flux core right now. I took some welding classes awhile ago but you wouldnt be able to tell by my welds lol. I am used to using gas and welding on a lot thicker of metal. As for overlaping, i didnt want to do that basically cause i was thinking it would create yet another place for water or moisture to gather. Maybe i over thought that though.

#6 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 05:06 PM

Good choice on the Hobart - you'll never regret owning that little guy. Lots of things you can do with it that the bigger machines don't do well and can't beat the portability. In case you aren't aware Hobart is owned by Miller (it's their entry level brand).

Flux core has the bad habit of running hotter than solid wire. It actually penetrate's BETTER than GMAW but with a lot more spatter, and slag problems. If you are at the upper border of the thickness your machine can run, Flux core will get you the extra penetration you need.

Sadly, that makes it harder to run on sheet goods. Cleaning and prep will help, and practice.

The benefits of overlapping it will outweight the costs. And if you are going to be filling and painting it anyway - I don't think it will matter.

Crazy as this sounds, I actually prefer stick welding on sheet metal. :rolleyes:. More control as you can vary your arc length and allow the puddle to freeze before you blow holes in it. Depends on the situation though as there are times when MIG has advantages.

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 26 October 2009 - 05:09 PM.


#7 hatchsub

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 05:16 PM

Yea i got a killer deal on this machine used I had been hunting for a good welder for a long LONG time. This one popped up for a cheap price and i jumped and have not regretted it. I have everything but the bottle and solid wire to convert it to gas (runs either or). I just have not done it yet cause i friend of mine has a bottle that he will give me for free...when he gets around to it :rolleyes:. As for the technique i use now..its just a matter of getting it to not burn through and i have it on the lowest heat setting as well and it STILL burns through sometimes. I guess i really do need to switch over to gas.

#8 Bucky92

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 06:46 PM

Nice job Steve!! I need to practice with my welder more..I see that and wish I could do repairs like that.. I am just the body filler queen.. but right now the only thing I need to weld is a 3 inch hole in the trunk of the coupe. and that doesnt have to be pretty.

#9 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 06:59 PM

If you have the resources to move to GMAW you should definitely do it. The wire is cheaper than flux-core and it's like $25 to fill a bottle. Then you can run .023 wire which will give you less burn-through. With the gas there is no slag so you can weld a bit at a time so as to not overheat the work. No slag removal either. All around a better process for what you are doing. You will be amazed how much smoother it runs with gas.

For several years (till recently actually) I ran a 130 amp 110v Harbor Frieght machine - unlike all the other folks that just buy them and run FCAW and *************** about how it sucks I actually bought a bottle and regulator for it. It served me well but never had the penetration I wanted for doing real fab work (bumpers, lifts, etc). It welded nice for what I paid for it (~$150 IIRC). The bottle and reg were more $$ than the machine. I was able to move the bottle to my new 220v machine though which saved me on upgrade costs. I put the flux wire back into the HF machine and ran a few welds with it just to see - it spatters more than my AC stick machine and the slag isn't exactly the softest stuff either. It's in a cupboard where it will stay unless I have to get mobile with my welding.

Another thing you might not have considered - that Hobart 140 needs a good sized breaker and if you run an extension cord you NEED a 10 AWG. One thing I learned the hard way with my 110v machine - don't run it on a 14 AWG, 100 ft extension cord. It can't draw the amps it needs and the welds will look like your's. Maybe that's part of your problem? IIRC, people claim you need at least a 30 amp circuit for the 140's and minimum of 10 AWG extension - no more than 50 ft.

GD

#10 hatchsub

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 07:40 PM

Another thing you might not have considered - that Hobart 140 needs a good sized breaker and if you run an extension cord you NEED a 10 AWG. One thing I learned the hard way with my 110v machine - don't run it on a 14 AWG, 100 ft extension cord. It can't draw the amps it needs and the welds will look like your's. Maybe that's part of your problem? IIRC, people claim you need at least a 30 amp circuit for the 140's and minimum of 10 AWG extension - no more than 50 ft.

GD


WOW i never would have thought of that. Ok upgraded extension cord on my list of things to buy. Yes the one im using is not a very good one at all. Im going to go bottle and get that cord and we shall ALL see what the difference will be from this repair to my next ones.

Edited by hatchsub, 26 October 2009 - 07:52 PM.


#11 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 08:13 PM

Yep - proper power supply to the welder is critical for it to work right. My grandfather had added like 50 ft of cable to my stick welder and it wouldn't function as anything more than a large magnet till I removed the cable and stripped back the wire till I got past the corrosion. Changed the plug to be compatible with my MIG machine and now I can use my 50ft 8/3 cord that I built for the shop. Welds like a maniac now. Gotta love the 1960's AC stick machine. It's such a beast and totally cheap to run.

GD

#12 bratman18

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 03:46 AM

Great job!! Brings back memories of when I was doing this kind of stuff to my Brat. Don't you just love the rust belt:rolleyes: Great job!!! Now make sure you oil it from the top and bottom before winter!!! I usually take out the screws for the plastic trim on the top side of the rocker and give it a good squirt of oil.

#13 wow

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 06:45 AM

good job.but you need a “Chassis armor”.

#14 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 08:12 AM

good job.but you need a “Chassis armor”.


Judging by his other post, this means "undercoating".

GD

#15 hatchsub

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 08:30 AM

Judging by his other post, this means "undercoating".

GD


Eh im not a big fan of undercoating to be honest. Its just another way for moisture to be trapped between the coating and the undercarriage. I am using light coats of rubberized undercoating in the wheelwells and on the back side of the pinchwelds once i clean em up but thats about it. I also used it to try to get back some of that textured look on the rocker with mixed results.

#16 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 09:03 AM

Seems like it would be a good idea if you could get it thick and even enough. I would be more likely to try something like hurculiner or one of the other roll-on bedliner products if I were going to try something. But then I haven't much experience with trying to keep underbodies from rusting since it's not an issue here.

GD

#17 hatchsub

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 09:20 AM

Well there is a factory undercoating on it right now that seems to be holding up fairly well except for the back of the pinch welds. Ive seen what undercoating does when it traps water between the metal and the coating..not pretty. My rabbit is a great example of it.

#18 hatchsub

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 05:22 PM

Just did some running around yesterday and today trying to get the welder set up. I am now running solid wire and gas as well as having the welder hooked up with a 10 gauge extension cord. Over the next couple of weeks im sure there will be more pictures added to this thread and hopefully it will help my welding with this setup.

#19 hatchsub

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 09:30 PM

Ok these are not best examples of my welds still since i was still learning on this. I did these about 2 or 3 weeks ago. These are the rear floors before and after.

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These are the repairs i did on the lower passenger fender.

Before:
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During:
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After to come....

#20 Jerry DeMoss

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 10:14 PM

Wow very good work! Way to stay dedicated to your car and not let the rust gremlins get the best of it. I will keep watching your progress.:D

#21 hatchsub

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 10:41 PM

Wow very good work! Way to stay dedicated to your car and not let the rust gremlins get the best of it. I will keep watching your progress.:D


Thanks Jerry :). Its been one hell of a good car so id just like to return the favor. I just wish it didnt have so much rust now.

#22 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:37 PM

Looking good. I doubt there's much you won't be able to fix with a welder if you keep this up. Good practice that sheet metal - it's not very forgiving is it? :)

GD

#23 hatchsub

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 09:51 AM

Looking good. I doubt there's much you won't be able to fix with a welder if you keep this up. Good practice that sheet metal - it's not very forgiving is it? :)

GD

No not very forgiving at all. But running gas def allows me a greater margin of error between penetrating and burning through. It was well worth the expense to switch.

#24 bratman18

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 04:19 PM

When I did my Brat I used a 220 Mig welder, it was so hard not to burn through. I had to do lots of little spot welds, but had to wait for each one to cool a little before doing the next. Looks good though!! Keep it up, and take your time!

#25 hatchsub

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 12:29 PM

More updates. Im going to be doing some more since the passenger side pinch weld is starting to go farther back. This car i swear the farther i get into it the more rust its got. But luckily none of it is structural. The frame rails are solid as a rock. You can see them in these pictures actually. This is the area right behind the passenger fender lower mount. It shows the repair i did on the lower fender earlier in this thread as well as my "new" pinch weld. came out pretty damn good if i dont say so myself.

Before:
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After:
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What its not showing is all the welding and fixing on the back side. I had to rebuild the back of the rocker then the front. Its all seam sealed and undercoated. Front part of the pinch weld its bent over just like the factory would have done at the bottom..and them seam sealed all the way across.




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