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Clutch Noise???????


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20 replies to this topic

#1 soccer13wv

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 01:42 AM

About 2 weeks ago I started noticing a sound when I started the car up. It seems to have gotten a little worse but not much. It makes the noise when I am driving but it is harder to hear over the engine and tire noise.

While idling the car only makes the noise if the clutch is out. As soon as I engage the clutch the noise stops. It is a continual but cyclical noise.

I am looking for some help in diagnosing the problem and how soon it is going to need to be fixed.

Thanks,
Rick

#2 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 01:45 AM

Throw-out bearing is probably on it's way out. If it goes it will lockup and will wear through the pressure plate fingers and you won't have a clutch anymore. The engine will just stay engaged to the tranny and you'll have to power shift it and start the engine in gear. Much like when a clutch cable breaks.

Pull the engine and do a complete clutch job.

GD

#3 hankosolder2

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 10:27 AM

Just to clarify- a lot of people interchange terms about the clutch being "in" or "out."

If it makes the noise only when the clutch pedal is depressed, it's probably the throw out/release bearing

If it makes the noise only when the clutch pedal is not depressed, it's probably bearings or other parts in the transmission.

Nathan

#4 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 11:46 AM

If it makes the noise only when the clutch pedal is depressed, it's probably the throw out/release bearing

If it makes the noise only when the clutch pedal is not depressed, it's probably bearings or other parts in the transmission.


Correct - in the first case it's typically the throw-out or pilot. In the second it's likely the transmission input shaft bearings. On the EJ 5 speed's they eliminated the input shaft bearing at the front of the tranny and that seems to result in the final (main) input shaft bearing being heavily loaded.

GD

#5 soccer13wv

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 09:55 PM

Thanks for the input. I appreciate the clarification as to which was "in" & "out".

I failed to mention what my car was in the original post. I have a 97 legacy L with a 2.2 and 5 speed.

The noise is being made when the clutch is not depressed, does any of this information change any input? My car has 165k miles on it.

#6 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 10:28 PM

That typically means a tranny input shaft bearing is going out. The throw-out is not being used and the pilot bearing is so small that it can't really make enough noise for you to easily hear.

Only way to really check it is to pull the engine and grab the input shaft to see how much play is in it. Shouldn't be much - less than 1mm. If there's a bunch of play or the tranny is "crunchy" when you turn the input shaft..... find another tranny.

GD

#7 grossgary

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 10:42 PM

Hey it's two Rick's! Thanks for the input GD, this is good friend of mine. I helped him get the car, did the timing belt on it, etc. If it turns into anything major then I'll probably end up helping him fix it.

I was confused to about what you meant on the phone - "in" verses "out" - i thought you meant the opposite.

RP - (GD knows his junk, he's unlikely to be wrong). check the transmission fluid immediately. Probably a good idea to just change it and get some quality synthetic fluid in there. I never checked it and you probably haven't either? Shame on us!

If you're up my way at all or we're meeting on the 19th I'll just bring stuff and we'll change it.

#8 ScoobySchmitty

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 10:48 PM

If it makes the noise only when the clutch pedal is not depressed, it's probably bearings or other parts in the transmission.

Nathan


Yeah, I agree with Nathan. You would have to remove the transmission for either problem, but in this case it might end up being the transmission itself. Once the transmission has been removed, try to wiggle the transmission input shaft up and down .If the input shaft on the transmission moves AT ALL, I'd look into a good used or rebuilt transmission. I'd also invest in a clutch kit while you have the transmission out. Yeah it's more cost, but for the amount of work it takes to have that beast out it's a damn good idea to replace every part you can!

PS, it's not particularly difficult to remove the transmission from the car, it's just a LOT of work. It might be covered in the Repair section on this site, along with tips and tricks people have discovered that make the job a little easier. Good luck dude!

#9 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 11:01 PM

Yeah - I just tore one down with a bad input shaft bearing - you could move the input shaft like 1/8" in either direction and the bearing itself was completely chewed - 1/4" of play and a cracked bearing cage.

If that's the case - the fluid might be really saturated with metal. On the one I just did it was so bad that the gear oil was actually a metallic grey - looked like poorly mixed silver paint. Yours may not be as bad but the gear oil drain plug is magnetic so it should have picked up something - it's pretty normal for them to have a small lump of metal dust on them but the oil will not be completely saturated like that if there's only minor wear.

The good news, if you are into crazy stuff like rebuilding tranny's, is that they come apart really easily with basic hand tools and the bearings can be replaced fairly easily. Although typically a good used tranny will run less than the parts to rebuild one properly. I just did one in a '96 and got a tranny and matching rear diff for $200.

Don't forget that tranny jack Gary - the $80 one from HF works great if you don't have a lift.

If the fluid comes out like silver paint..... don't bother changing it. Just dump the old stuff back in an top off with motor oil or ATF - whatever you have on hand. :rolleyes:

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 28 November 2009 - 11:04 PM.


#10 grossgary

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 11:07 PM

Don't forget that tranny jack Gary - the $80 one from HF works great if you don't have a lift.

GD

when i said i'd "help" that means he's doing all the hard lifting and aligning, so who needs a trans jack?!:lol:

once the trans is out how long would it take to replace that input shaft bearing only? front diff has to come off first right? hour, 5, 10?

RP - check the gear oil and let me know what it looks like on the dipstick at least.

#11 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 11:16 PM

Front diff is part of the tranny - doesn't come off seperate like the autos.

Probably take a couple hours to tear down the tranny and inspect. Assuming it's just that one bearing you would want to probably have it pressed off the shaft and the new one pressed on. Figure 3 or 4 hours to clean and prep for assembly - get all the metal out of the rest of the bearings, gears, and syncro's - get the mating surfaces degreased, etc. Another couple hours for reassembly I would say.

You would want to replace at least the axle stub seals, the input shaft seal, and the rear output seal. If it were me probably the 1st/2nd syncro's as well.... There are some paper gaskets but I would just replace them with flange sealant.

GD

#12 grossgary

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 11:16 PM

Did some searching and found this from Will:

I've got a '96 Legacy Outback
Mine had a growl with the similar characteristic of going away when I put in the clutch. I changed my clutch along with the throw-out bearing and the noise went away. How it was explained to me is that the bearing is always spinning but when the car is in neutral or it is in gear driving, the bearing is has no load on it and will make noise. Once you push the clutch in, you put a load on it and the bearing gets quiet. So you may just need to do a clutch job.


Will knows his stuff, has split a transmission and replaced bearings before?
So maybe it is clutch related instead?

Wow thanks GD, gah that's more time than I had hoped for.

#13 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 11:19 PM

Will knows his stuff, has split a transmission and replaced bearings before?
So maybe it is clutch related instead?


Easy enough to check - loosen the clutch cable and push the fork forward to disengage the TO from the PP fingers. If the noise goes away then you have found the problem!

GD

#14 grossgary

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 11:27 PM

Easy enough to check - loosen the clutch cable and push the fork forward to disengage the TO from the PP fingers. If the noise goes away then you have found the problem!

GD

There you go RP - we need to do this. And still change the fluid as soon as possible too...who knows it might be 13 year old 150,000 mile fluid in there still?

#15 ScoobySchmitty

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 06:26 AM

Easy enough to check - loosen the clutch cable and push the fork forward to disengage the TO from the PP fingers. If the noise goes away then you have found the problem!

GD


I was thinking that too, but my post was getting too long :lol:

#16 aa8jzdial

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 06:26 PM

This sounds like what I had this summer on my 1999 Forester. Put in a used tranny for about $600, parts and labor.
Now our second Forester, a low mileage 2000 model has developed the same problem.
Question #1. Can a 4 thumbed rookie have any chance of replacing the bad main shaft bearing, or bearings?
#2 If so, what is the likely costs?
#3 Any idea what tranny besides one from a 2000 Forester will work?
Issues like speedo gearing and neutral / reverse switches.
I believe the diff ratio is 4.11/1.
#4 if I find a donor car, will the VIN reveal the diff ratios?
#5 How hard is it to count the ring and pinion gear teeth to calculate the ratio?
I am beginning to like the early 90's Legacy more and more.
thanks,
Rick
w. mi.

#17 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 06:40 PM

#1. Can a 4 thumbed rookie have any chance of replacing the bad main shaft bearing, or bearings?


Hhhhhmmmm - questionable. If you keep track of all your parts and baggie all your nuts bolts then you can probably get it to peices ok. Changing the bearing will have to be done by a machine shop - just take them the bearing and the input shaft and ask them to swap them out. Know that reassembly is going to be the hardest part and take a lot of cleaning and careful application of sealant, etc. If you have a nice big, clean work surface I don't see why you couldn't do it.

#2 If so, what is the likely costs?


Less than $600 I'm sure. I would bet that bearing is probably around $40 to $60 or a little more. A bearing house would be cheaper than the dealer.

#3 Any idea what tranny besides one from a 2000 Forester will work?
Issues like speedo gearing and neutral / reverse switches.
I believe the diff ratio is 4.11/1.


Any of the 5 speed's from about '95 up should work. Most of the non-forester/outback one's are going to be 3.9. The neutral/reverse switches from your existing tranny will thread right in to any replacement tranny.

If you are willing to fab a new 2nd cat exhaust hanger or swap the center diff housing from your existing tranny then a '90 to '94 will work also - nice thing there is that all '90 to '94 tranny's are 4.11 already. In addition to the exhaust bracket you would need to swap over the linkage adaptor - but that's just two roll pins.

I just put a '93 tranny into a '96 - swapped the switches over, swapped the linkage rod adaptor, and fabbed a new exhaust bracket. Swapped in the rear diff at the same time to make the car 4.11.

#4 if I find a donor car, will the VIN reveal the diff ratios?


No - likely not.

#5 How hard is it to count the ring and pinion gear teeth to calculate the ratio?


Once you open the tranny - peice of cake. You can do the same with the rear diff by removeing the back cover.

I am beginning to like the early 90's Legacy more and more.


Their 5 speed's are no different - suffer from the same failure eventually. It's all in how they are driven. I have a friend with a '90 Legacy that he bought new in '90 and it has 255k on the original tranny. No play in the shaft at all.

Oh and if it's a hydro clutch car then you may have to swap the forks and such as well.

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 29 November 2009 - 06:44 PM.


#18 aa8jzdial

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 08:33 PM

GD
Thanks for the help.
You talked me out of trying the rebuild.
We did come up with a 2000 Outback with 120K miles. $450
This should be a 3.9/1, right?
Therefore I go back to the yard and bargain for the rear diff.
Now for my education, I looked into a drain port on a 4.11/1 tranny and counted 37 teeth on the ring gear. Therefore the pinion gear is 9 teeth.
37/9=4.11.
If that is true then I assume the 3.90/1 will have 39 ring gear teeth and 10 pinion teeth.
If I look in the 2000 Outback tranny, count 39 ring gear teeth and it is indeed 3.90/1 I spring for the rear diff. Yes?
Sheesh. I need a beer.
One more thing. ....
With the 3.90/1 will my wife get tickets for speeding or have folks blowing the horn at her to get her moving?
If so how can I resolve this minor issue?
Thanks again.
Rick

#19 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 09:16 PM

GD
Thanks for the help.
You talked me out of trying the rebuild.
We did come up with a 2000 Outback with 120K miles. $450
This should be a 3.9/1, right?


Outback tranny should be a 4.11. It's the non-outback's that are 3.9... but double check for sure.

Therefore I go back to the yard and bargain for the rear diff.
Now for my education, I looked into a drain port on a 4.11/1 tranny and counted 37 teeth on the ring gear. Therefore the pinion gear is 9 teeth.
37/9=4.11.
If that is true then I assume the 3.90/1 will have 39 ring gear teeth and 10 pinion teeth.
If I look in the 2000 Outback tranny, count 39 ring gear teeth and it is indeed 3.90/1 I spring for the rear diff. Yes?


Actually you just made me see clearly that you in fact *can* tell the ratio from this method. I hadn't thought about just infering how many pinion teeth it has but that does work and you are correct - 39 = 3.9 and 37 = 4.11. I suspect you will count 37 on the outback tranny but if it's 39 then you'll need the matching diff.

Sheesh. I need a beer.


Yes - you may now proceed with the beer.

One more thing. ....
With the 3.90/1 will my wife get tickets for speeding or have folks blowing the horn at her to get her moving?
If so how can I resolve this minor issue?
Thanks again.
Rick


The ratio difference is so very small - I don't think you will have an issue with it. I put a 4.11 tranny into a 3.9 car and I couldn't tell the difference and as far as I know the new owner can't either. But I still think the tranny is the same 4.11 you have now.....

GD

#20 grossgary

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:27 PM

Actually you just made me see clearly that you in fact *can* tell the ratio from this method.

That's it, this is what I was saying in that other thread where you kept saying the trans would need to be torn down to verify.

Like he already said that minor final drive difference is not going to be a big deal. Folks do the same thing all the time when switching tire sizes. Speedo's typically read a few percent low anyway, not sure which way you might go but if it ends up being a little "faster" than it was for the same RPM you might actually be more accurate :lol:.

Edited by grossgary, 30 November 2009 - 10:35 PM.


#21 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:41 PM

That's it, this is what I was saying in that other thread where you kept saying the trans would need to be torn down to verify. I just didn't use numbers.


Yeah - I get it now. I don't always see things that are so simple and obvious to others. In my mind the ratio was determined by the TWO gears and counting both their teeth. Counting only one infer's that you know all the common ratio's and that you have seen all the possible pinion gear tooth counts. If you are aren't 100% sure that it "has to be one or the other" then there's still some ambiguity..... especially with oversea's products. If you count 39 teeth you might conclude that it has a 3.9 ratio - but might it not also have a 3.54 ratio? or a 4.33 ratio? In the US we can say no but *I* don't have any freakin clue what AUS and NZ got ya know?

Damn I love my Avatar...... :lol:

GD




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