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03 Outback H6...whining from front diff area?


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25 replies to this topic

#1 Gloyale

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 12:16 PM

So we recently found my mom a 2003 LL Bean H6 to replace the totaled 96 outback.

Got a great deal on it. Though there is a reason.

There is a whining, related only to vehichle speed, and throttle position/load.

My first thought was a front diff that is misadjusted (i've seen the bearing cups messed with by unfamiliar mechanics trying to change axles).....So I will be attempting a minor adjustment.


Should that fail to change anything.....My next thought is the large roller bearing that supports the pinion shaft for the front diff.

So my question is does anyone know of a failurre of this bearing in H6 automatics? Or any 4EAT?

And I guess secondly.....while i've removed many 4EATs, never one from an H6.....anything I'm gonna encounter?

Thanks all for input and comments.




BTW....pics of the LL Bean and the WRECKED 96 OBW coming soon to a thread near you.

#2 CNY_Dave

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 02:49 PM

How many miles on it?

I think the H6 4eat is exactly the same as a legacy 4eat, and different from an outback 4eat in that it has the legacy 4.11 gearing instead of the outback normal 4.44 gearing.


Dave

#3 grossgary

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 03:23 PM

Gloyale - you're positive it's from the front diff area?

H6's are known for having timing guide noises which is a high pitched whining noise as well. Requires replacing the damaged guides.

Otherwise I'd suspect the H6 set up to be nearly identical to the H4 in terms of transmission layout and operation. Probably the same base 4EAT trans with slightly different set up if any difference at all. But you know more about that than i do so I'm not telling you much.

#4 Gloyale

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 05:23 PM

Gloyale - you're positive it's from the front diff area?

H6's are known for having timing guide noises which is a high pitched whining noise as well. Requires replacing the damaged guides.



I am pretty positive it is drvietrain and not engine.

The noise is linked 100% to vehichle speed. Engine speed has no effect on it.

I adjusted the diff slightly. (moved the ring gear about .5 mm toward the pinion) Noise is quieted, but not gone.....I might try another adjustment.

I still am not ruling out the pinion support bearing though........

#5 Fairtax4me

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 08:13 PM

I always wondered what those rings were all about. Good thing I didn't start messing with them and find out the hard way like I usually do! :lol: Assuming they do the same thing on the manual trans?

Sorry to hear of the wrecked car. Hopefully whoever was aboard at the time is OK.

#6 grossgary

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 07:44 AM

yep, not good to mess with those unless you have to and know what you're doing.

#7 brus brother

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 08:12 AM

You guys are in over my head but in my 00 Legacy auto there was a progressively worsening whining noise diagnosed as "normal" pinion gear sound that started around 60,000 miles but SOA nonetheless replaced the trany under 100k warranty when it started making other unrelated clicking noises.

#8 Breeke

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 09:14 AM

You guys are in over my head but in my 00 Legacy auto there was a progressively worsening whining noise diagnosed as "normal" pinion gear sound that started around 60,000 miles but SOA nonetheless replaced the trany under 100k warranty when it started making other unrelated clicking noises.


Clicking = bad CV axles.

Have you changed them recently? If you have, have you used OEM or EMPI axles. Something to ponder....

#9 brus brother

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 09:58 AM

Clicking = bad CV axles.

Have you changed them recently? If you have, have you used OEM or EMPI axles. Something to ponder....

Nah the clicking related to shifting into gears (at stop)... went away when they changed the tranny. It was the second tranny they changed on my 2000. The first swap was for delayed engagement at 25,000 miles.
I no longer have the car now as I customized it at at 89K by crash.:banghead:

#10 Gnuman

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 09:54 PM

The front diff area for a 4EAT is the same as for the 5MT, other than the 5MT front diff shares gear oil with the mauin gearbox, while the 4EAT does not. Biggest difference to the 2003 units and the '98 units is that the 2003 units have twice as many bolts holding the bell housing to the crankcase. Other than that, proceed as usual. With you knowing how to adjust the pinion gears, I will just assume you thought to check/change the gear oil in the front diff as well. . . ;)

#11 Gloyale

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 05:07 PM

Adjustment changed the noise some, but it is still present and consistant.

I will soon be pulling the trans, taking of the tailshaft and the front diff sections, and replacing the bearings on the pinion shaft.

Really, I swear there will be some pics soon.

#12 grossgary

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 11:51 PM

Man, you're nuts!!

Does that mean the bearing preload or backlash will need readjusted too?

Good luck, that's awesome! (i mean that in a technical, you're the man because you're going to do it kind of way).

#13 Gloyale

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 10:59 AM

Man, you're nuts!!

Does that mean the bearing preload or backlash will need readjusted too?



Yeah, but now after haveing done several, they are easier. Dial gauge goes through the drain plug hole.

The more I do them, the less I worry. Worst you'll get is whining........unless you really set it WAAAY off.

#14 Gloyale

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 11:46 AM

UPDATE:

I pulled the trans yesterday and disassembled the diff.

The pinion bearing was toasted.

Think of it like a wheel bearing. It's actually 2 tappered roller bearings, each one facing opposite so that axial loads (push in/out on the shaft) is taken by one of the tappers.

In this case, the load is always pushing back.....the pinion "pushes" off the ring gear all the time you are driving. IDK why subaru didn't put some type of thrust face in there for a more posite "stop" But they didn't. When the bearing goes.....that shaft starts walking to the back of the bus.

that's what happened in this case, the bearing wore, and the pinion shaft started walking "back" into the trans, making the pinion teeth only contact at the edge. Well they are worn to hell.

It also seems that the shaft moving backward destroyed the seal between the Diff and the Trans body (skirt seal, like a front main)


Ring/pinion gearset: $325

Pinion bearing, Seal, and O-ring: $200

Side bearings, seal tube, and gaskets: $200

total: $725 parts.


VS> cost of used trans for an H6.....$1200 shipped out of Utah.


This is alot of work....but in the end I feel a better option than a used trans.

If this was a 4cyl......I throw a used trans in it in a heartbeat.

#15 grossgary

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 12:51 PM

wow crack that's expensive. i know someone that tried to fix the front diff and ended up with another failed diff shortly afterwards. guess he could have done something wrong or had the backlash hosed but i was thinking it probably damaged something else - like the pinion shaft you're talking about.

good job getting it done, sounds like a bear of a job.

#16 CNY_Dave

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 07:52 AM

UPDATE:

snipped...

VS> cost of used trans for an H6.....$1200 shipped out of Utah.


This is alot of work....but in the end I feel a better option than a used trans.

If this was a 4cyl......I throw a used trans in it in a heartbeat.


Is there something different about the H6 trans?

I thought it was the same as an H4 legacy (non-outback) trans.

From what I think I know:
Outback H4- 4.44 ratio
Outback H6- 4.11 ratio
Legacy H4- 4.11 ratio

Dave

#17 Gloyale

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 11:59 AM

Is there something different about the H6 trans?

I thought it was the same as an H4 legacy (non-outback) trans.

From what I think I know:
Outback H4- 4.44 ratio
Outback H6- 4.11 ratio
Legacy H4- 4.11 ratio

Dave


3 more bolts in the bellhousing

Different ratios of individual gears as well as the final drive.

I probably could interchange another 4.11 trans, but it would have different gears so the TCU may freak. Plus 3 bolts would be unused.

And since the H6 has already toasted one pinion bearing, I want to start with a new one, not another used.

#18 CNY_Dave

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 02:22 PM

Yep, I'm just maxxing my H6 knowledge.

Used is always a crapshoot.


Dave

#19 Fairtax4me

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 08:44 PM

Where are the pics? :grin:
LoL, just kiddin. That's a heck of a project. I decided when I had my manual apart that if any of the bearings on the pinion shaft ever go bad I would just ditch the trans.

One of them cost more than a used trans, the rest were much cheaper but the labor involved to get to them is just simply not worth it. I suppose if a new (used) trans were $1200 it might be a different story.

#20 Gloyale

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 12:49 PM

Well, all is going well for the most part. New bearings pressed, backlash on the pinion set.

until.....BROKEN BOLT........DAMN

There are 2 nuts and one bolt that hold the pump to the case body (additionally to the Diff bolts) the one bolt was SUPER tight coming out, so much so I had to tear into another trans as a model to make sure that bolt ACTUALLY is supposed to come out and is not an adjuster or something.

It should come straight out. M10 x 1.25 bolt into a solid aluminum piece. I worked it gently back and forth in an attempt to coax it out, but in the end it came about halfway then broke.

So now I have about 1/2" of bolt sticking out of the mating face of the pump to the trans body (could there be a worse place?)

I've tried twice now to weld a nut onto it and back it out. Both time the weld breaks and the nut spins off. I am affraid to weld more aggressively on it in fear of damaging the aluminum.

Ugh......

I swear, there will be pics.

#21 brus brother

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 01:35 PM

Ugh......

I swear, there will be pics.

That's OK I've seen pictures of guys swearing before...:banana:

#22 Gloyale

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 10:02 PM

Something was not right on the assembly line whn this tranny was made.

The bolt is stuck in so hard, that I am giving up. There is no way it can be removed without drilling it out, and helicoiling the hole.

this would require removing all the gears and clutches and the valve body in order for the machinest to properly clamp it up and drill accurately.

So, if I have to take all that stuff out, I am gonna just swap it all into a different case. I'll retain the original pump and diff/bell. The pinion backlash is all set and matched to that pump, but the cases should be able to be swapped without affecting anything.

So I went and got batteries for the camera.

Tommorow you are all in for an up close and personal look at the entire reassembly process of all the clutches, the valve body, the wiring harness, and the pump.

#23 Fairtax4me

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 05:20 PM

Feel lucky there are only 4 speeds in that one.
I have no idea how the techs at work keep the parts straight on the Mercedes 7 speed automatics. :eek: We've had several of them apart. It's scary how much stuff they managed to cram in there.

#24 CNY_Dave

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 07:46 AM

If you had time with a bit of clay and the right acid you could dissolve the bolt right out of there... I think there's even a way to speed the process with a bit of electricity.


Dave

#25 Gloyale

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 09:44 AM

broken bolt:

Posted Image

More photos on my photobucket account

It's about half way assembled, I'll get more pictures today.

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Edited by Gloyale, 04 April 2010 - 10:40 AM.





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