Jump to content


Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, my lurker friend!

Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, an unparalleled Subaru community full of the greatest Subaru gurus and modders on the planet! We offer technical information and discussion about all things Subaru, the best and most popular all wheel drive vehicles ever created.

We offer all this information for free to everyone, even lurkers like you! All we ask in return is that you sign up and give back some of what you get out - without our awesome registered users none of this would be possible! Plus, you get way more great stuff as a member! Lurk to lose, participate to WIN*!
  • Say hello and join the conversation
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get automatic updates
  • Get your own profile and make new friends
  • Classifieds with all sorts of Subaru goodies
  • Photo hosting in our gallery
  • Meet other cool people with cool cars
Seriously, what are you waiting for? Make your life more fulfilling and join today! You and your Subaru won't regret it, we guarantee** it.

* The joy of participation and being generally awesome constitutes winning
** Not an actual guarantee, but seriously, you probably won't regret it!

Serving the Subaru Community since May 18th, 1998!

Guest Message by DevFuse
 

Photo
- - - - -

99 Legacy OBW 2.5 rough idle


  • Please log in to reply
32 replies to this topic

#1 Zuber

Zuber

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 08 January 2010 - 11:12 PM

I'm new to this board since I'm normally working on my Cherokee for off roading and my 58 Ford, but my wife's 99 wagon just started running really rough at idle this last week.

It has 130k and had all the standard maint. up to this point. I replaced the plugs & fuel filter 10k ago and just replaced the wires (w/ OEM) today, no luck. It ends up throwing a P0301/3 (cyl. 1&3 misfires) codes after you drive it a while. It really feels like when an old v-8 is missing on a cylinder and you get that chugging that is very consistent and rough at idle. I searched this board and tried spraying water on the coil pack and didn't see any sparking at all. Checked the resistance across the coil pack according to the FSM instructions and those values are pretty close to spec.

Could this be something as simple as bad gas or a clogged injector? I'm getting close to spending the money to take it to the dealer and have them give it a go but I've heard everything from bad coil pack to bad head gasket to bad valve adjustments from the service guys over the last couple of days asking them questions on the phone.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated since my wife really wants her car back and is pushing me to take it in sooner than later.

Kent

#2 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,602 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 09 January 2010 - 12:06 AM

Swap wires around and see if it moves. What kind of plugs are in the car?

how is the gas mileage?

Check the coil connections.

Is there any oil on the spark plug boots?


and welcome to the board.

#3 Zuber

Zuber

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 09 January 2010 - 10:07 AM

OEM spec'd plugs. NGK PF5RB-11.
New plug wires have been on the car about 12 hours. The old plug wires had no sign of oil on the boots.
All the connections where made yesterday with dielectric grease and are snug.

As far as gas mileage goes, we haven't driven the car except to try and get it working since the problem showed up last week. Wife came to a stop sign and all the sudden the car starts chugging/missing and she brought it home immediately. That's why I was wondering if it could be fuel related.

I believe around 10k ago she ended up with an error for cylinders 2&4, took it to the dealer and they said she needed to replace the plugs and fuel filter. I did both of those things back then.

Thanks again for any info,

Kent

#4 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,602 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 09 January 2010 - 11:42 AM

Get yourself a cheap vacume gauge and let us know exactly what it is reading.

Also any odd noises from the front of the engine? When the timing belt was replaced, what else was replaced?

Any new axles of late?

#5 Zuber

Zuber

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 09 January 2010 - 11:50 AM

@115k timing belt and oil pump were overhauled by the dealer according to her records.

The car is pretty much stock with only routine maint. to keep it going.

I'll try to get out and check the manifold vacuum pressure in a little while and let you know what I find out.

Thanks again,

Kent

#6 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,602 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 09 January 2010 - 11:51 AM

I am interested in the idlers and tensioner, were they replaced?

#7 Gloyale

Gloyale

    It's a sickness

  • Members
  • 9,281 posts
  • Corvallis, OR PNW

Posted 09 January 2010 - 12:03 PM

Make sure the plug wires are not touching or coming near to the Fuel Injector wires. Intrference between the 2 will throw those misfire codes.

#8 Zuber

Zuber

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 09 January 2010 - 01:32 PM

I don't think they touched the idlers or tensioners according to the receipt.

Vacuum at start up is a pretty steady 12 psi. I'm at 6000 ft so that has to be accounted for. It is jumping around but only +/- 0.5 psi. No major jumps.

I had checked the wires for the fuel injectors and spark plugs and they are as far apart as possible.

#9 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,602 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 09 January 2010 - 01:49 PM

12 is low, even at altitude. The idlers and tensioner NOt being replaced is a mistake on somebodys part, as even subaru recomends replacing them When you dont in 5-20000 miles they let you know they should have been replaced.

http://www.classictr...cts/vac/uum.htm


My next step would be a compression etst, but i wonder if you have a tensioner or idler going bad and allowed to TB to jump.


nipper

#10 Zuber

Zuber

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 09 January 2010 - 02:10 PM

My buddy was over last night and he suggested that the timing was off but I didn't think that could be the case since the belt had been replaced. I didn't know about the idlers and pulleys otherwise I would have insisted that they do that back then. I put in a call to the guy she normally takes the car to at the dealer to ask him if this was done or not. Waiting for a call back. I seriously doubt it since there aren't any of those parts on the invoice.

I just went through the whole manifold vacuum process with the 58 Ford after rejetting the carbs for this altitude. That definitely helps with timing on the old cars.

BTW, Now I'm getting misfire codes on 1,2, & 3. :rolleyes:

Thanks again for all the info.

#11 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,602 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 09 January 2010 - 02:14 PM

Dont drive the car untill this is figured out, i would even be hesitant to start it. remove the TB covers and see whats going on.

#12 Zuber

Zuber

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 09 January 2010 - 04:02 PM

That definitely doesn't sound good. Just had shoulder surgery last week and not really going to be able to do any serious wrenching on this for a couple more weeks at least. Spark plug wires are about as good as I can do right now.

Looks like we'll have to get it to the dealer over by the house. Can always get AAA to tow it over there.

All the info is extremely helpful. I will make sure to explain to the service folks what's been looked in to and let them know that the TB pulleys/idlers weren't changed with the TB. At least the vacuum readings didn't make it look like something really crazy like a blown head gasket or anything.

I will post back after I get it diagnosed so others will have a reference.

Thanks for all the help.

#13 OB99W

OB99W

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 3,315 posts
  • Ithaca

Posted 09 January 2010 - 04:57 PM

Vacuum at start up is a pretty steady 12 psi. I'm at 6000 ft so that has to be accounted for.

Intake vacuum is reduced by about one inch of mercury per 1,000 feet of elevation. 12" Hg is definitely too low.

#14 Zuber

Zuber

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:46 AM

Sounds like you guys were correct. According to the $260 figure out what's wrong charge, looks like a tensioner is going bad and let the timing belt slip. My wife talked to them so far, but looks like they are asking almost $1000 to fix it. Should I just suck it up and pay or get it back home and replace the worn parts myself? We have extra cars so I can wait a little bit to do the work. I have the FSM and looked at the procedure to change the timing belt. It doesn't look that hard, just time consuming and cramped because of the radiator and fans.

Talked to the service rep that did the TB 15k ago and he said they don't normally replace the idlers and tensioners since they cost $400 and don't usually fail. No sympathy from them, big surprise.

Thanks again...should have just listened and done it myself.

#15 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,602 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:18 PM

Sounds like you guys were correct. According to the $260 figure out what's wrong charge, looks like a tensioner is going bad and let the timing belt slip. My wife talked to them so far, but looks like they are asking almost $1000 to fix it. Should I just suck it up and pay or get it back home and replace the worn parts myself? We have extra cars so I can wait a little bit to do the work. I have the FSM and looked at the procedure to change the timing belt. It doesn't look that hard, just time consuming and cramped because of the radiator and fans.

Talked to the service rep that did the TB 15k ago and he said they don't normally replace the idlers and tensioners since they cost $400 and don't usually fail. No sympathy from them, big surprise.

Thanks again...should have just listened and done it myself.


That first shop is a moron, and the second one a rip off.

www.endwrench.com in the archives under engine in the timing belt article specifically recomneds replacing bothe parts and even states they arent designed to last past 106,000 miles.

Bring the car home and do it yourself. The most I ever paid for a TB change (including seals and water pump) was 650.00.

nipper

#16 Zuber

Zuber

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:55 PM

You made me laugh. I assume that everything should be pretty straight forward using the FSM to go through the process of getting the timing marks lined up correctly with the TB. It looks really tight in there on the front of the engine. Is it necessary to pull the radiator or is just getting the fans off enough to get down in there and see all the marks to get it set up?

Supposedly they pulled off one cover and loosened another to check all this out. The total bill that they want is around $1200. $535 for parts (3 idlers, a tensioner, and a new TB), another $350 for labor, and the original $260 for the inspection. I even called the service manager and questioned the fact that they still wanted to charge the full labor amount for a TB change when already could tell me that a bunch of parts were bad. Another dealer I called said that they would do all the work with parts for $800. $150 less... I know where I will never take my car again. Anybody in the Denver area be wary of the dealer on Arapahoe.

Sounds like I need to arrange with AAA to get it towed back to the house and eat the $260. Use one of the 15% coupons off parts at the other dealer and get to work.

Once again, this reaffirms why I almost never take my cars to a dealer and do the work myself.

#17 Gloyale

Gloyale

    It's a sickness

  • Members
  • 9,281 posts
  • Corvallis, OR PNW

Posted 12 January 2010 - 01:17 PM

Order a PCI timing belt kit from Ebay with a water pump included.

Take it with you to a shop, or install it yourself.....but you'll save at least $300 on what they are charging for parts.

If you haven't done a subaru T-belt....the DOHC can be tricky....but it's not really that hard.

Save yourself somee trouble and remove the radiator. makes it all really easy. And you are gonna drain it to replace the waterpump anyway.

#18 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,602 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 12 January 2010 - 07:54 PM

You made me laugh. I assume that everything should be pretty straight forward using the FSM to go through the process of getting the timing marks lined up correctly with the TB. It looks really tight in there on the front of the engine. Is it necessary to pull the radiator or is just getting the fans off enough to get down in there and see all the marks to get it set up?

Supposedly they pulled off one cover and loosened another to check all this out. The total bill that they want is around $1200. $535 for parts (3 idlers, a tensioner, and a new TB), another $350 for labor, and the original $260 for the inspection. I even called the service manager and questioned the fact that they still wanted to charge the full labor amount for a TB change when already could tell me that a bunch of parts were bad. Another dealer I called said that they would do all the work with parts for $800. $150 less... I know where I will never take my car again. Anybody in the Denver area be wary of the dealer on Arapahoe.

Sounds like I need to arrange with AAA to get it towed back to the house and eat the $260. Use one of the 15% coupons off parts at the other dealer and get to work.

Once again, this reaffirms why I almost never take my cars to a dealer and do the work myself.



I dont know why the dealer is charging so much for this job aside from the fact they dont want to do it. Even by subaru rates and book time it is not a 1000.00 job.

nipper

#19 Zuber

Zuber

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 12 January 2010 - 09:43 PM

The service woman kept quoting the job with 5 idler pulleys, not 3. That added another $180 to the $800 that would have been for 3 idlers, 1 tensioner, 1 TB and $350 labor. Plus I could have used a 15% coupon. However, after a day of phone tag with that dealer (A) and another dealer (B) that seemed more reputable, I have the car back in the garage thanks to AAA.

You wouldn't believe the nonsense dealer A was pulling. I called them back after I called dealer B and told them that dealer B would do the job for $790 vs. their $973. I get a call back later saying that they called dealer B and they were quoted $970 from dealer B. Called dealer B and asked what was going on. She said they asked for a quote with 5 idlers vs. 3 and she gave it to them. Funniest part is that dealer A pretended to be a customer but dealer B has caller id. :grin: The woman at dealer B and I had a good laugh about that one. When I went to pick up the car this evening I told dealer A that there was confusion about the number of idlers and she claims dealer B was lying because she was listening to the service manager make the call and her manager asked for a quote with 3 idlers. Absolute nonsense.

So, looks like I'll be doing this over the next week or so. I plan on going ahead and replacing the water pump as well since I'll have it all apart. Is there any reason to buy OEM parts for any of these parts? I may be naive but water pumps shouldn't as critical as plugs and wires to engine performance. I may just get the idlers and tensioner from dealer since they have 15% off or from online. That is unless people think the ones from NAPA would work just as well.

Between the FSM and the article nipper linked to, I'm not too worried about the job. Just need the time to get it done.

Thanks again for all the info. This is one of the more helpful and responsive boards that I belong to.

#20 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,602 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 12 January 2010 - 09:49 PM

My outlook on OE parts. If the original part lasted 106,000 or more miles, I would go with OE again. Thats just me.

Also look at the on line suppliers to see if the costs are competative to aftermarket. I will say I have yet to hear of an aftermarket WP going bad prematurely, in any make or model car.

Seals (if you are smart) should be OE. T-stat (what the heck your there) should be OE. DO the PCV valve just because.


nipper

#21 Zuber

Zuber

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 22 January 2010 - 03:40 PM

Finally getting around to working on this. Got everything off including the driver side camshaft sprockets and replaced the water pump/thermostat. Two of the pulleys are really bad. I mean really bad. One of them only has half of it's original ball bearings left and the other one has shed a lot of metal as well. There was a lot of metal in there. I decided to replace the timing belt as well after seeing how much metal was in there even though it only has 15k on it.

Big question...How important are the timing belt covers for protecting that area? Both the outer and inner covers on the driver side are missing a big section on the side closest to the wheel. I might be able to get them from a dealer today, otherwise, I would be waiting to get them shipped to me from one of the online places. Do these covers need to be 100% intact or are they there mostly to keep things clean in there? They didn't even mention replacing them at the dealer and they usually tried to get you to buy everything.

Thanks again,

Kent

#22 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,602 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 22 January 2010 - 03:55 PM

Ah yes another great choice, timing belt covers or religon.



Religon is a safer topic.


Depends. Are you ever going To take the car off road? Covers are there to keep foreighn objects out and to keep from throwing rockas around. I off road a lot so i like to have mine. Ive lost some fan belts to oily mud but the timing belt always looks good. I woould find them at a junkyard (or ebay), i wouldnt get them from a dealer.

nipper

#23 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,602 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 22 January 2010 - 03:57 PM

I don't think they touched the idlers or tensioners according to the receipt.


I like it when I am right :)


I dont like it when I am right and it costs someone money. Always replace all the timing belt goodies as a set.


nipper

#24 Zuber

Zuber

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 22 January 2010 - 04:11 PM

I've already been telling everyone I know that has a newer Subaru to do this exact thing if they are going to get the TB replaced.

Hit the junkyards last week and not a single 2.5 at any of them. I can get the inner and outer ones from a dealer for around $25 each. I for sure will do the inner one now since I have it all apart. I may wait on the outer one since I can get to that pretty easily after everything is back together. That way I might have better luck at a yard in the next few weeks.

#25 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,602 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 22 January 2010 - 04:18 PM

I've already been telling everyone I know that has a newer Subaru to do this exact thing if they are going to get the TB replaced.

.



Subaru even says it on endwrench. The shop who did it before is a poorly run business. not only did it possibly loose a customer, it lost an opportunity to sell more merchandise (parts) and make a profit.


nipper




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users