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1990 Loyale: CEL 11, 13, 23, 24


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15 replies to this topic

#1 jbjording

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 07:17 PM

1990 Subaru Loyale

About a month ago my car started acting up. Whenever it is cold outside it will not start without giving it some gas. Then it will idle around 300 rpm. Once the engine is warm it will start idling a little better, still lurching a little. If I then turn it off and back on again the CEL will go off and it will run fine. I pulled some codes:

11 - Crank angle sensor
13 - Cam position sensor
23 - Air flow meter
24 - Air control valve

I had already replaced the idle air control valve (I was able to find a remanufactured one for relatively inexpensive) because I was convinced that was the problem and I couldn't figure out how to check the CEL codes.

Now that I figured out the CEL, I'm convinced it has to be something that is causing all four codes to show up, instead of all four coincidentally screwing up (especially since I already changed out the IAC valve). Something electrical, perhaps?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

#2 zyewdall

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 06:58 PM

11 and 13 sound like the distributor -- I've gotten those when I had the distributor miswired (swapping a '91 engine into an '87 body, which had different plugs for the SPFI system). But, I have no idea on the others, or why it might be intermittent. It wouldn't fire at all when it was throwing those codes.

#3 jbjording

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 07:21 PM

Thanks, I'm going to check that this weekend.

#4 jbjording

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 11:09 AM

Well, yesterday I replaced the distributor cap and rotor. But since the engine was kind of warm from driving earlier (aka running fine,) I had to wait until this morning to see if replacing those had any effect. It didn't, I'm still experiencing a low cold idle. I pulled the negative cable off the battery to reset the codes. I also connected the green connectors by the fuel filter (what I'm guessing are the "Clear Memory" connectors) together while the engine was running (how the Haynes manual says to reset the ECM.) Now, if the test connectors (the white ones near the fuel filter) are not connected I get codes 23 & 24. If I plug the connectors together I still get all four codes.

Edited by jbjording, 24 January 2010 - 12:37 PM.


#5 MilesFox

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 11:34 AM

you can disregard the distributor codes, since they will show when the key is on when the engine is not running.

in your situation, i would replace the engine temp sensor, the one on the thermostat with the green connector. a new one will cost 80-90 bucks unless you can find a used one.

try cleaning out the idle air valve by tking it apart and spraying it with carb cleaner, or try soaking it in sea foam.

the white plugs are the clear memory connectors. the green plugs should remain disconnected

#6 jbjording

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 12:48 PM

When the green plugs are connected and the ignition is in the ON position (engine not running) the fuel pump or there about, just in front of the rear passenger-side wheel, makes an interesting noise, a sort of pulsing every two seconds. There is also a ticking sound from the engine around the fuel lines' connection with the throttle. I can't really notice either noise when the engine is running. But I'll leave them disconnected...

Edited by jbjording, 24 January 2010 - 02:08 PM.


#7 jbjording

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 07:39 PM

Here is a little update:

Codes 11 and 13 keep coming up even when the car is running.

The other day the CEL started not going off after the car was warm and I restarted it. The idle eventually evens itself out and the engine won't die when I drop the RPMs quickly.

I checked the sensors with a voltmeter:

Airflow meter:

Resistance between the body ground and terminal B (ground) was 0.8 ohms (not more than 10 ohms).

Voltage at terminal R (battery) and body ground was at least 10 volts.

Terminals W (signal) and terminal B (ground) with the key in ON (engine not running) voltage was 0.3 volts (between 0.1 and 0.5 volts).

Signal voltage increased when I blew air through the intake system.


Air control valve:

Voltage from the BW terminal was 11.4 volts (10 volts or more).

The resistance on the air control valve side of the harness was 9.7 ohms (between 7 and 13 ohms).

I didn't really understand measuring the insulation resistance of the valve. "Install the positive probe onto each terminal with the negative probe touching the body control valve. It should be 1M ohms or greater."

Is it the difference between the two when I test them individually?


Coolant temperature sensor:

Resistance value when cold (41-degrees) was 2336 ohms (between 2000 and 3000 ohms at 68-degrees).

Resistance value when warm was approximately 400 ohms (the manual says between 700 and 1000 ohms at 122-degrees).



After that I decided to see what kind of codes were coming up and the coolant temperature sensor (21) was on there along with 11, 13, 23, 24, regardless of whether or not the engine is running.

I tested the sensor again before I left for work and once I got there and they readings were approximately the same.

So I ordered a new coolant temperature sensor. We'll see if that helps.

#8 subarurage

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 12:35 PM

Was it the coolant temp sensor?

#9 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 12:53 PM

Was it the coolant temp sensor?


Just go check the resistance of yout CTS. It takes 5 minutes or less.

This thread is 4 months old and likely the guy isn't even around unless he has a problem. A lot of members are like that - he probably won't reply. But bumping his thread means that a bunch of other members are now going to try and help this dude (who isn't even reading most likely) and waste their time and mine because they fail to read the date on the last important post by the OP. :mad:. He joined in Jan - has 5 posts in only this thread ALSO in Jan..... he's long gone dude.

If you have a question for a specific member like the OP in this thread - send them a PM. Don't gravedig - it's a waste 99% of the time.

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Edited by GeneralDisorder, 24 April 2010 - 12:56 PM.


#10 subarurage

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 01:30 PM

Sorry!

It is lame when the person with problem doesn't post what fixes it.

#11 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 10:05 PM

Sorry!

It is lame when the person with problem doesn't post what fixes it.


I agree. But posting your own thread would give superior results.

GD

#12 jbjording

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Posted 25 April 2010 - 11:48 AM

I'm sorry. I would have posted what the fix was, if I knew. I wasn't able to get the coolant sensor in, I didn't have the right wrench. So I don't know if that will fix it.

So, right now the CEL is still on, when the engine is cold, and the only code it gives me is the 24. I've replaced the idle air control valve twice and it is still doing the same thing. If I get around to replacing the coolant temperature sensor, I'll be sure to let everyone know. But now I just warm my car up and restart it and it runs fine.

Sorry again, I didn't know it was going to be a huge deal if I didn't tell anyone I hadn't done anything.

#13 jbjording

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Posted 25 April 2010 - 11:52 AM

The resistance values on the coolant temperature sensor seemed fine when I checked them before.

#14 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 25 April 2010 - 12:06 PM

Sorry again, I didn't know it was going to be a huge deal if I didn't tell anyone I hadn't done anything.


It's not - but being you had 5 posts from months ago - all in this thread...... it was a good guess that you were not a regular member around here. Only a guess of course, and this time a wrong one!

As to your problem - I would check voltage supplies to the MAF and IAC, as well as clean all the grounds on the manifold and engine bay harnesses. You might just be having a grounding issue causing high resistance readings from the ECU's point of view. With that many codes and the engine still running it's a good bet.

GD

#15 jbjording

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Posted 25 April 2010 - 12:18 PM

I think all of the other codes went off when I had the battery disconnected while I was trying to get the coolant temperature sensor switched. When I decided I couldn't get the old one out and put everything back the only code it was giving me was 24. So it's just code 24 now, not 11, 13, or 23 anymore. After that happened I exchanged the IAC valve for a different one and switched them out. Since that didn't fix it I figured it was something with the wiring, and that's a little over my head.

#16 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 25 April 2010 - 12:28 PM

It's not at all over your head to clean some grounds - just unbolt them, sand either side of the ring terminal, and sand a little around where it mounts - then put them back on.

GD




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