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Guest Message by DevFuse
 

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Oil is dissapearing...not so bad now, but driveability issues now!


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30 replies to this topic

#1 WJM

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Posted 17 February 2004 - 10:33 AM

Ok guys, on the car in the sig....the cam covers/valve covers, are covered in a film of Mobil 1 10w-30...and the PCV pipes are wet with oil at the bottom where they connect...the entire intake manifold has a film on it, and there is no sign of oil around the PCV valve. The turbo intake housing is covered in oil, as with the entire intake tract. There seems to be oil in the exhaust, as between shifts, puff of oil smoke after I get back on the gas.

I am using up about 1qt every 100 miles now...and those conditions are approx 35 miles of HIGH SPEED interstate travel (avg speed 85-90 or better) and about 10 miles of regular roads and 2 miles of country road. It used to be it would use 1 qt every 750 miles or so...that was with some interstate and most of it was regualr roads, speeds averaging 55-65.

My daily commute is about to go from 10 miles a day to 100 miles...so $5 more a day just for oil is not looking good, thats $30 more a week, plus about $50 in fuel. Dont need that.

Anyone got a clue as to what the problem is? PCV system shot? Turbo seals gone? Something just plain wrong?

Common experts - start thinking!!

#2 MilesFox

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Posted 17 February 2004 - 10:45 AM

see if the PCV hoses themselves are clogged up, if so, replavce with 5/8 hose. as this happened to the sedan, it puked till we changed a hose, left the same pcv valve in

#3 Skip

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Posted 17 February 2004 - 10:46 AM

Will sorry to read this, could be
Posted Image
ref: Project Meltdown
Me thinks it's time for a compression check- no?


#4 JWX

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 12:29 AM

is it losing power? if its just spewing oil could be the PCV stuff blocked up. but I'm no expert just trying to help

#5 GLCraig

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 02:04 AM

Is your oil cap on tight?

#6 WJM

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 08:30 AM

Miles: I'll try that.

Skip: Nope, plenty of power, no change in that. Idles smooth....ive read that article many many times. But, if I can find that guage, I'll check the compression.

JWX: I think it possibly could be the PCV system....i hope it is. dont want it to be the turbo seals, or the piston like Skip says.

GLCraigGT: Yeah, the oil cap is on tight.

#7 WJM

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 12:03 PM

Did a search of oil consumption/pcv system issues...so I took the entire PCV system apart. The hoses at the cam covers were cracked really bad. So I replaced those with less cracked ones frmo the RX, and hoseclamped them. NO leak with that. The hoses to and from the PCV valve were fine, no cracks, not that hard either, sealed fine. PCV valve rattled and appears to work fine. Sprayed it with carb cleaner...we shall see how it performs next time I drive!

#8 WJM

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 10:31 PM

Ok, the problem is WORSE now...over 1 qt over 100 miles now...even with lowering the speed on the I-state.

So, Im gonna scrap the WHOLE stock pcv system...im gonna get two hoses, one from each cam cover, to a tee, and a breather filter there, and plug up the two holes left behind on the turbo intake pipe.

If that doesnt fix it....its the turbo. If it aint that...well, i might as well do a compression test tomorrow, I found the gauge while rummaging today.

#9 asavage

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 11:37 PM

On my N/A, when I bought it I had no vacuum at the PCV valve at idle. Pulled it out, it was clogged solid, and so was the intake manifold, where the valve screwed in. I had to fish around in there with some aerosol gasket remover and a No. 0 screwdriver to break it all up, replaced the PCV, and ran a wire through the cam cover hoses.

Later, I've had to replace both cam cover hoses, because after hoseclamping them, eventually they cracked right above the clamp. Not too expensive at the dealer, about $28 a side.

A cylinder leakdown test would be a good idea, just to rule out excessive blowby, but not everybody has a cylinder leakdown tester. I've borrowed one for years, but just bought one from eBay (hasn't arrived yet), but a leakdown test tell you more things than a compression test. Here are a couple articles on how to build on yourself:

http://www.xs11.com/...isc/misc3.shtml
http://www.650motorc...DownTester.html

and a good PDF on how to use one:
http://www.goodson.c...nstr/LDT-50.pdf

If you've got oil on the outside of the engine, then you've got a leak, right? If it's a std leak, then it's repairable. If it's a leak caused by a presurized crankcase, it's still repairable, but not nearly as easily nor usually economically. I'm likely not saying anything you don't already know.

At a qt/<100 mi., this is not a minor issue. I'd get out the engine degreaser, hose it down, idle it dry, then do ONE full-throttle run through maybe 2nd gear -- get it into boost for a couple of seconds only -- then look under the hood. Oil coming off the oil fill tube? Out the dipstick tube? Bad news.

I hope it's good news, but you really can't drive it like that. But you know that.

(When diesels get excessive blow-by at the rings, they'll run on the PCV system. I've had two old worn-out Rabbit diesels do that to me. It's a really weird feeling, driving along at 70, take your foot off the accelerator, but the car doesn't slow down! Makes the phrase, "running on fumes" take on a whole 'nuther meaning!)

#10 WJM

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 07:32 PM

ok, pcv system bypassed with hoses going to a breather filter...no change.

Oil is everywhere up under the car?!?! No sign of it comming from the top of the engine, but its comming from somewhere below!

ARG.

#11 junkyardgabe

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 11:29 PM

go to napa and by a bottle of leak dye for oil put it in your oil and by the sounds it will show up after 4or5 miles you will need a black light to see the dye but it will be obvious:cool:

#12 asavage

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 11:43 PM

Originally posted by WJM
Oil is everywhere up under the car?!?! No sign of it comming from the top of the engine, but its comming from somewhere below!


That's Good News! That means that you can fix it without having to spend $2k.

I don't know turbo EA82s, but the std EA82 has several common leak points:

Oil pump mounting "Mickey Mouse" gasket/o-ring, and oil pump shaft seal. You do have to remove the timing belts to replace these three seals, which means removing the fan clutch (if equipped) and electric fan (ditto), but you can easily do this in an afternoon, including finding replacement 10mm head bolts to replace the ones that always disappear. Oil pump mounting kit is Beck-Arnley 039-6320 and runs about $20. I haven't purchased this from NAPA, but it looks like they list the parts separately: Mickey Mouse gasket is NGA B45702 at $7, and the oil pump shaft seal is NOS 7205 at $5.

Front crankshaft seal, camshaft seals, camshaft seal carrier o-ring: cheap to fix, these also require taking off the timing belts. For the cam seals & carrier o-rings, you also have to remove the camshaft sprockets, which I find a lot easier to do with an air ratchet, but can also be done without: it's just a bit harder. You can buy the seals & o-rings separately, or as a Victor-Reinz kit from NAPA, part No. JV-1028 for about $56, which includes a set of all the timing covers rubber gaskets that are often a soggy mess.

Harder to fix are the camcase o-rings, and lastly the headgaskets. Both are fairly common leak points. On the NA EA82, the camcase is glued to the top of the head -- no gasket -- and there is an o-ring that seals the oil feed passage to the camshaft. After a while it leaks to the outside. It can get pretty bad. Cameron's page has this pretty good picture:
Posted Image
It's a bit of work to replace these o-rings and re-glue the camcase to the top of the yeads, but it's very cheap. Just have to buy two o-rings (from Subaru, recommended), some high-temp RTV (orange or red), and a valve cover gasket set (to reseal the valve cover).

The head gasket can also leak. Same reason as the camcase: the head gasket has an o-ring built into it for the same oil feed passage. Naturally, replacing the head gasket(s) is a lot more work than any other fix I've outlined, but it's still a lot cheaper than having a scored cylinder or broken piston.

go to napa and by a bottle of leak dye for oil put it in your oil and by the sounds it will show up after 4or5 miles you will need a black light to see the dye but it will be obvious

If you've got a black light, this does work, but your leak is so gross that I imagine that a can of brake cleaner ($2.50) and one minute under the running engine will spot the leak. You don't even have to drive it, I imagine.

#13 WJM

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 09:11 AM

asavage: great info! this engine was resealed about 14 months ago...i dont see why it would be leaking like this so soon...still, im gonna crawl up under the car and see whats going on this morning.

I wonder if my oil cooler fittings are leaking...i DID install that recently....

#14 Partsman

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 10:07 AM

AHA!

Always look at the obvious first. I'll bet your problem is right there on those fittings.

#15 WJM

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 10:27 AM

ok, i tihnk the source of the oil everywhere was the oil cooerl fittings.


LOTS of oil smoke from the exhaust now, its geting WORSE.

how many votes for the turbo seas are shot?

with the oil cap off, and the breather pcv syatem on...aka, no engine vac on the crankcase, there is no positive pressure...

#16 WJM

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 04:20 PM

Ok, replaced the turbo with a spare turbo I didnt know I had...off the RX. took some time to prep it. I KNOW this one didnt leak oil.

Smoke is still there....compression test:

1: 90
2: 75
3: 110
4: 90

Well well...is this normal? me thinks not.

#17 calebz

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 04:30 PM

75 is not a good thing.. maybe a valve isn't seated properly? Head gasket leak? or.. eek.. rings?(smoke from the exhaust.. low compression..)

#18 Snowman

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 11:39 PM

Do the compression test again, but put a bit of oil in the cylinder beforehand. If compression goes up, it's rings. If no difference, it's valves.

#19 asavage

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Snowman
Do the compression test again, but put a bit of oil in the cylinder beforehand. If compression goes up, it's rings. If no difference, it's valves.


Doesn't work for horizontal pistons (Subaru, Corvair, old VW, Citroen 2CV). You can't get the oil to the "topside" of the piston.

Cylinder leakdown test (or the low-rent equivalent) is the only accurate way.

1: 90
2: 75
3: 110
4: 90

Well well...is this normal?

I don't know about "normal" for a T engine, but my SPFI -- which has higher compression, though not by much -- all cyls were within 10 PSI of 155 except the one that got scored (by me), and that one was at 90 PSI. It ran . . . OK, but you could tell that one cyl wasn't pulling very hard. When I tore it down, there were more or less normal carbon deposits. Alldata showed my 155 to be in the middle of the normal range for a used EA82 NA.

Based on that, I'd say you've got toast. Whether your toast is just two slices (the heads/valves) or four (the bores/pistongs/rings) is unknown.

#20 WJM

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 12:31 PM

yeah, ive got the nassisary equipment to go an engine replacement now. Just wait for this engine to finally expire, so the experiment is complete, and for me to build the new engine.

Prolly a turbo short block, with a TD04, a TWE header, and proper TBE for the TD04....

#21 Snowman

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 04:13 PM

Actually, I have proof that the oil in cylinder thing does work for our engines. When I was testing my bad cylinder, it read 75 w/o oil and 145 w/ oil.

#22 asavage

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 12:52 AM

Originally posted by Snowman
Actually, I have proof that the oil in cylinder thing does work for our engines. When I was testing my bad cylinder, it read 75 w/o oil and 145 w/ oil.


On a vertical piston engine, the idea is to temporarily change the leakdown rate of the ring/wall interface by introducing oil. The amount advised is 1t to 1T -- find any reference you like, noone will advise more than 1T. Read on to find out why:

Liquids do not compress -- well, hardly at all. If you put two or three T in a cylinder, it displaces so much air that you will get a significant change in your compression reading regardless of the actual leakdown rate.

IOW, the results of the oil-in-the-cyl test are pretty widely subjective. Put a lot of oil in, the engine will hydrolock. Put just a bit less in, you'll get readings like it's a diesel. Put in only enough to temporarily change the leakdown rate (ie, 1T), and on a Subaru, you won't see hardly any change at all, because the oil will only "seal" the bottom third of the wall area.

Of course, if you lay the car on its side to do the test (and use the other side for the other two cylinders!), the oil test works fine -- as far as it goes.

A cylinder leakdown test is the only accurate way of determining the amount of total compression leakage, and ascertaining where the leakage occurs, short of teardown.

#23 Snowman

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 02:12 AM

Aha, thanks for clearing that up for me.

#24 WJM

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Posted 27 February 2004 - 07:47 PM

Well, the oil comsumption has gone down...only to be replaced with no power....and power keeps dissapearing all the time. The intake note is getting louder than the exhaust, cuz the exh keeps gettign quieter. Turob takes forever to spool, even at 3500. Used to spool instantly at 2800! That and I cant hear the turbo make noise much anymore...MPGs are around 24-25.

So, im wondering if the cats or something else is causing the exh to be clogged? I hear some rattling inside there...the crossover pipe is nice and tight, and no leaks, i know what its like to have one of those broke or leaking.

Ive got a downpipe, no cat, and it just shoots stright down to the ground after the cannister for the cat...im gonna try that.

Im itching to throw those Delta cams in as well...just for kicks.

Also, the power bad is like this: 2800-4200, weak weak power, 4200+ NOTHING, bogging, and at 4800, detonation, bog, det, bog, and it wont go past it. 1500-2800-decent power, but still bogs some. Thru out the whole band, i get hops and skips and detonation for no reason ever once in a while...like every 400 rpm increacement.

Hm....

#25 WJM

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Posted 27 February 2004 - 10:11 PM

well, the cats are removed. Heres the exh i am using now. Note the new O2 sensor...

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