38 replies to this topic

[GeneralDisorder]

You all are aware of how much I dislike the EA82. Mostly I've taken to simply not owning them..... due in some part to the lifter design .

My girl likes the EA82 sedan body style - she likes the 4WD D/R..... and in part because I had an old '86 beater sedan that I picked up for $100 when we met years ago.

It seems that the 5 speed D/R sedans were mostly made in '85/'86 or something because most of the one's I've seen have been carbed, early models.

So I found her one about a year ago - swapped in a Weber. Figured I would do an EJ22 swap on it at some point. But I don't have the time or space or another vehicle ready for her to drive right now to do that.

The last few months it's developed a nasty lifter tick - so loud she got pulled over and the cop commented that it sounded very "bad" and was smoking (axle grease on the cat ) and told her he would write her a ticket if he saw her again. She pretty much demanded that I do something about it.

Not wanting to spend a bunch of time and money I changed the oil and dumped in a bottle of Rislone and the ticking went away...... for about 500 miles. I repeated the proceedure with the same results - 500 miles it came back. This went on half a dozen times before I decided something more was going to be required..... hated to do it since the timing belts were done not long ago according the documentation so I didn't want to open it up..... but I didn't have much choice.

First thing I checked was the oil pump mickey seal - it was at that point that I realized that this had probably been an issue before I bought the car since the seal was new . Carefully checked all the oil pump tollerances - inner/outer rotor diameter and thickness, outer rotor clearance with the block, etc. All perfectly within spec. No problems there and I already knew the pressure reading was excelent.

So in utter disgust I figured I was going to have to go deeper. I pulled the cam towers and found the expected (for '86) rubber only tower o-rings that were hard, collapsed, and cracked. Picked up a new set of those. I pulled the lifters (which came right out due to the use of Rislone ), and started checking them. 3 of them were pretty mushy. I tried the sugestion in the book of immersing them in light oil and pumping them - that didn't do anything useful.

At that point I figured there was no point in putting the mushy lifters back in since they weren't pumping up for me and the book says to replace them if that's the case.... I went to the junk yard and tore down an EA82 I found there with 112k on it - had a massive water pump failure. Pulled it's lifters and from the lot I got 3 that were pretty good and a couple more that were borderline (book says no more than 0.5mm of play).

From the 16 lifters I had on hand I picked the best 4 (all with pretty much no play) to go in the drivers side (because it's the hardest to get back apart) and the next best 4 to go in the passenger side. 3 of the passenger side units have about 1mm of play - but it's what I had and I needed the car on the road.

I ordered a new set of pressure relief valve springs from the dealer but they aren't in yet - the two for the banjo bolts in the cam towers and the one in the pump itself. For now I used the ones from the JY engine as they were about 0.5mm longer than the ones from my car.

Put it all back together - best set of lifters I could assemble, new cam tower o-rings, new oil pump mickey, ditched the belt covers, and sealed everything up good. And as I hoped the ticking is gone from the driver's side and there is only a very soft tapping from the passenger side.

Now I have an extra set of lifters to send to Mizpah for rebuilding. Note that I did dissasemble one and they are NOT dirty inside. They just won't pump up.

While we have been telling people for a long time to throw in some MMO or Rislone - I feel that in the majority of cases that I've seen this is really not going to solve the problem for more than a few hundred or a few thousand miles at most. I think ultimately that the seals play only a minor role in the equation and that it's wear in the lifters themselves that cause most of the problems. Replacing the lifters (along with new seals of course) seems to be the only long-term solution that really works.

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 28 June 2010 - 07:02 PM.

[bheinen74]

i have heard changing to different brands (pressure limits) of oil filters can change the click click click tisk tisk tisk on these. but not so sure after what you found in the lifters
i was surprised it was not your oil pump tho.
good writeup, way to save a ea82.

[idosubaru]

since TOD can come-and-go often times, a lot of suggestions tend to be anecdotal and not long term solutions probably like you said.

treatment probably only works in cases where they're stuck - but not so bad that they're damaged or not going to "unstick" so that's a very small number.

on vehicles other than seized HLA's i've had 100% (all 4 or so of them ) success in new oil pumps solving the problem, and know others that have as well.

the only HLA's I've ever replaced were completely seized and wouldn't move in a vice. I've never put any faith in the FSM in terms of squishing and pre-filling. I just install them - stiff as a board, squishy and all if they made no noise prior or replace seized one if there was noise...and never had tapping issues.

seems like folks that maintain them well have very few issues with TOD, all of the long time XT owners that have had them for years on subaruxt.com seem to never have issues..and probably many here too? after 20+ years it's not hard to find ill maintained EA82's, particularly when in many parts of the country they're barely worth scrap prices.

[3eyedwagon]

EA81 it!!!

Then it will sound how a Subaru should, in addition to the slightly less common ea81 lifter problems.

[monstaru]

i have a wonderful EA82T that i will gladly sell you today , for some cash tomorrow.:lol:ahh, i ************in love popeye references.......cheers, brian

[GeneralDisorder]

on vehicles other than seized HLA's i've had 100% (all 4 or so of them ) success in new oil pumps solving the problem, and know others that have as well.

In this case I checked every aspect of the oil pump with a metric micrometer and feeler gauges. It was dead nuts in the middle of every spec listed. There was no scoring or other damage either. I can state difinitively that changing the pump would have accomplished nothing on this engine.

None of the lifters were seized. The only problems I found were the cam tower o-rings (non-reinforced early versions and hard/cracked) the lifters themselves, and the releif valve springs.

GD

[idosubaru]

In this case I checked every aspect of the oil pump with a metric micrometer and feeler gauges.

yeah i wasn't insinuating that was the case here, just throwing it out there for general TOD talk. i think in those cases it is a deformed oil pump gasket (mickey mouse) which you didnt' mention.

do the measurements include any kind of flatness measure - like uneven-ness? i'm thinking along the lines of head warp? what i've seen is a propensity to deform the gaskets as mentioned above, they get sucked into one of those two little holes. it's my guess that in those cases the pumps are slightly warped enough to prevent the gasket from staying in place. not sure how many miles it would take for a new gasket to become permanently deformed.

i wish i had some of the old oil pumps i replaced that had ticking to check out, but if i do I don't know it.

[GeneralDisorder]

There is no "spec" for flatness of the pump. The design pretty much insures that the bolts will torque it down to the block's mounting surface.... if the pump body were warped it would cause the rotor to bind while turning since the clearances between the rotor's themselves and between the rotors and the block is very small.....the outer rotor has .003" clearance between the rotor and the block..... in any case the oil pump gasket on this one had been replaced with the last timing belt and so had about 15,000 miles on it and didn't show any signs of being sucked in or being hardened (I still replaced it of course).

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 29 June 2010 - 02:09 PM.

[GeneralDisorder]

The true cause of the malfunctioning lifters (TOD) still troubles me. I've been thinking about it for a while and in talking with a friend of mine.... this is the best scenario we can come up with.

1. Rislone/MMO/ATF are classically used for cleaning and in the case of older american engines the problem with ticking lifters were often because the lifters themselves were "sticky" from oil varnish. They would compress but not bounce back as intended and thus additional clearance and ticking was generated.

2. In the case of the EA82 lifters, the lifters are *not* sticky and varnished - rather they are most often simply not able to "pump up" due to the oil pressure being fed to them. They NEED good oil pressure consistently. Their tendancy is to deflate under normal operation as the oil is sqeezed past the piston in the lifter from the action of the rocker arm. Constant oil pressure high enough to fill the chamber in the lifter at a rate (volume) that is higher than it is being expelled via the action of the rocker.

3. The commonly touted hypothesis that there is somehow air bubbles in the oil supply to the lifters is absolutely hogwash. The lifters are at the end of a LONG list of other components and any air in the sysem would first HAVE to come from the pump, and from the inlet side of the pump at that - air cannot enter an oil supply system that is pressurized unless it is introduced before the pump or at the pump. There are also many other chances for bubbles to escape before reaching the lifters if such a thing was happeneing.

4. The main reason that MMO/ATF/Rislone work to quiet EA82 lifters temporarily is due to nothing more than a reduction in the viscosity of the oil. These products are light oils that are heavy in detergents. They have about an SAE 10 rating for viscosity. Coupled with the tendancy for engine oil to increase it's viscosity with age - 3 brand new quarts of SAE 30 oil and 1 quart of detergent-heavy SAE 10 makes for a big reduction in viscosity immediately following an oil change.

5. This "trick" though is a double-edged-sword so to speak. The detergent heavy crankcase contents are now working to free up all the varnish and deposits inside the engine - causeing the viscosity to increase rapidly as the oil dissolves and suspends these contaminants. Which causes the lifters to begin ticking again as the oil pressure at the end of the long chain of small diameter oil delivery galleries drops in response to the thicker oil.

So it's really all about oil pressure. Thicker oil is harder to push through small diameter oil passages and as the engine ages - seals start to fail, oil pumps get worn, clearances on the main and rod bearings open up, the lifters themselves wear and require a higher volume oil delivery, etc - the pressure drops till it hits a critical point where even though the pressure is good enough for the rest of the engine - by the time it reaches the lifters it is too thick and under too little pressure to effectively pass through the small passages needed to fill the lifters with the volume they require. Instead of the piston chamber filling with oil it is filled with air bubbles drawn in through the space around the lifter's plunger as the oil is expelled with each push from the cam lobe.

Changing the oil naturally thins it out - adding any of the common additives further thins it. This "fixes" the ticking by simply increaseing the pressure to the lifters for a short time. But generally causes quicker fouling of the oil due to the heavy detergent content and requires more frequent changes to stop the ticking.

The more the lifters are allowed to tick - the more wear they incur and a higher volume of oil will be required for them to remain inflated.

So - if you want to solve the problem for more than a few hundred miles - additves are not the solution. You are doing more harm than good typically as the thinner oil lubricates less effectively and it will often result in very frequent oil changes in order to keep the ticking under control.

The *real* solution is usually a whole bunch of little solutions - oil pump, seals (pump and cam towers), less worn/reman lifters, etc.

Unfortunately there is no magic bullet for the TOD.

GD

[idosubaru]

I'll throw this in for discussion since our experiences seem to differ. HLA failure is rare in my experience. I'd even say i've never seen it since the only two seized hla's i saw were on an XT that was driven with bad headgaskets for a very long time, like stupid amount of time. Outside of that i've never replaced HLA's, had TOD that wasn't alleviated over 19 years of daily driving and owning 20 or so XT's. It's also a rare issue with the long time owners on the XT forum. Maybe rust AND TOD is just too much to bear so they all hit the scrap yards :lol: I believe I've only driven two extensively that had over 200,000 miles though, yours has a bunch?

Recently the administrator/owner (austin) of the forum had TOD that wouldn't go away with multiple attempts to fix it. I sent him a new oil pump - it finally cured it. I've never mic'ed them but I bet they'd test in spec. Actually - I think he mailed his bad pump back to me. I'm kind of curious to install or mic it but I know I'll never have the time. Actually I'm reassembling an XT6 now that doesn't have the pump on yet...hmmmm.....how daring am i?

Why is no one else piping up? i'd be interested in hearing from others that have experience with lots of EA's and a few hundred thousand miles under their belts.

My appologies if the air bubbles are incorrect GD - the most common problem in XT's is often the gasket getting sucked into one of the ports. There are pictures of the deformed gasket if you've never seen it, this happens over and over again. I assumed introduction of air was the symptom of that failed gasket, pretty sure really bad cases show bubbles on the dipstick but maybe it's just volume reduction?

Wonder if there's any reason an XT6 would have better HLA performance? That is most of my experience although I've owned a few XT's as well and the XT guys on the XT forum don't seem to have any more issues with them? Is 100,000 miles more wear on a 4 cylinder than a 6?

[GeneralDisorder]

Outside of that i've never replaced HLA's, had TOD that wasn't alleviated over 19 years of daily driving and owning 20 or so XT's.

I'm assuming that's a typo? It sounds like you are saying you never solved TOD on some XT's?

I believe I've only driven two extensively that had over 200,000 miles though, yours has a bunch?

Mileage and maintenance are both related. This one has about 175k on it. I had another that was around 125k and ticked a lot. And on the other hand I have had one with 245k that never ticked even after I did head gaskets on it.

It seems to have more to do with maintenance.

Recently the administrator/owner (austin) of the forum had TOD that wouldn't go away with multiple attempts to fix it. I sent him a new oil pump - it finally cured it. I've never mic'ed them but I bet they'd test in spec. Actually - I think he mailed his bad pump back to me. I'm kind of curious to install or mic it but I know I'll never have the time. Actually I'm reassembling an XT6 now that doesn't have the pump on yet...hmmmm.....how daring am i?

I should clarify a bit. I have quite of a bit of experience with precision measureing and a little experience with machine work as well - I can say that between what I observed and what I measured there was no indicationg of ANY wear to the pump components. It's not that it's just "within spec" - I'm saying that it has no wear and was manufactured to the measurements which I took. All the measurements were smack in the center of the range - which is typical of how parts are machined when a tollerance is given and the manufacturing machinery is capable of enough precision to do so. For example - the OD of the outer rotor is spec'd to be 49.95mm to 50.00mm. It mic'd to 49.975mm - in conjunction with it's smooth, ground appearance it is clear to me that there is no wear present - thus changing the pump was uneccesary. Had I found any evidence of wear I probably would have replaced it even if it still technically met the spec. But the pump might as well have been new - perhaps it had already been replaced. Certainly it had been removed for the seal replacement so I am unable to tell if it's original or not. But it is a "B" spec pump and does fit the block correctly.

My appologies if the air bubbles are incorrect GD - the most common problem in XT's is often the gasket getting sucked into one of the ports. There are pictures of the deformed gasket if you've never seen it, this happens over and over again. I assumed introduction of air was the symptom of that failed gasket, pretty sure really bad cases show bubbles on the dipstick but maybe it's just volume reduction?

From what I have seen there are some differences with the XT6 pump..... I know of the "sucking in" of the o-ring that you describe. The same thing happens with the non-reinforced cam-tower o-rings. I must say I do not know what causes this but I am not convinced that it is sucking in air - rather I think there is some other cause for the defomation but that once it is deformed it causes a pressure loss which is why replacing the deformed o-ring can help/cure a ticking problem. The clue here is that while the o-ring deformation on the oil pump might be caused by suction from the pump - the o-rings in the cam towers are under no such stress - only pressure from the oil supply gallery and yet they similarly deform and "suck in" with a V shaped protrusion.

Wonder if there's any reason an XT6 would have better HLA performance? That is most of my experience although I've owned a few XT's as well and the XT guys on the XT forum don't seem to have any more issues with them? Is 100,000 miles more wear on a 4 cylinder than a 6?

Certainly the primarly difference with the XT6 is going to the size of the oil pump - which will have to be of greater volume to supply the longer, larger oil galleries. This in conjunction with possible ID differences of oil passages in the larger engine may act to eliminate most of these problems with the 6. That would be my first guess though I have no real experience with that engine.

GD

[idosubaru]

ah yes, i've seen the "v" shaped indentations on the cam orings as well.

[Ricearu]

i bought a 86 motor from "ruparts"... it has 80k on it. what are the chances it will tick if I did not do the cam tower O rings?

[GeneralDisorder]

i bought a 86 motor from "ruparts"... it has 80k on it. what are the chances it will tick if I did not do the cam tower O rings?

No way to tell really. It's all about maintenance although with an '86 there is a higher incidence of cam tower o-ring failure simply because they didn't come out with the updated reinforced o-ring till late '87 or '88. But I had an '86 with over 240k on it when I did the head gaskets - it still had it's original rubber cam tower o-rings (cracked, hard and sucked in) but still didn't ever tick. Good maintenance goes a long way and I know that with that particular engine the owner was an older gentleman that took excelent mechanical care of it for most of it's earlier life.

There are too many variables to say what will happen. If it's had poor or just average maintenance then you can expect the rubber o-rings to cause problems. If it's had excelent maintenance then they might not be enough of a problem to worry about. They are *one* of the potential leaks that will cause a loss of pressure to the lifters. On their own it doesn't seem they are quite enough to cause ticking but in conjunction with other engine wear they become one peice of the solution puzzle.

GD

[Ricearu]

thanks for the help and reassurance. I didn't buy them so that was beginning to worry me. Right now, It is clean and on the stand in my living room with all new external seals, and timing belts, ready to drop in. I am gonna drop it saturday and hope for the best. I have faith that there won't be any major problems and you confirmed that for me. Once again, Thanks GD

[themoneypit]

on my first xt6 (hence the name moneypit ) i would get TOD after long highway drives, or hard driving. i resealed the pump, same result.. i had several lifters replaced with supposed good ones, still same problem.... brand new subaru oil pump was finally installed and it, for the most part, went away. it would come back every once in awhile. usually right before it needed an oil change... an oil change and letting it idle for 20+ minutes would cure it. never did figure it out completely. the car had 89k when purchased, 125k when sold.

however, my current xt6 has (knock on wood!) never had any TOD. i purchased it from the original owner, and it was meticulously maintained by subaru. i have a folder an inch thick from the P/O. so i COMPLETELY AGREE that maintenance has a HUGE factor in the TOD

[hooziewhatsit]

Might as well throw in my two bits, as I found this thread looking for Mizpahs website address

My 91 Loyale had TOD @ ~165k miles that would come and go. I first replaced the cam o-rings and resealed the oil pump. Didn't work. Next got a new oil pump and seals, didn't work. Finally got rebuilt lifters from Mizpah, resealed everything again, and it's been quiet since (almost 2 years to the day! ha!)

My '88 wagon with 215k miles is still quiet, and I think all I've done are regular oil changes. I just checked, and I don't think I've ever resealed anything on that engine.

Today I tore apart an engine from an 86 (I think it had a jap engine installed at some point) due to a blown headgasket. The oil pump gasket was still good (I think it replaced it a while ago). The cam o-rings were hilarious. Both broken in one place, sucked in, and hard. They looked like hearts

This car had the loudest TOD I've ever heard. All ticking, all the time. On one of the lifters I could move the plunger a little. I put two others in a vice and had to reef on it pretty hard to get them to move and seep out milkshake oil :barf:. Said screw it, and came here looking for Mizpahs address.

I agree that maintenance is a big part of it, and at some point, in my experience, the only real solution is new/rebuilt lifters, in conjunction with new seals in the rest of the system.

[SmashedGlass]

At risk of getting flamed for reviving a year+ old thread, it it possible to mount the XT6 oil pump to the EA82, as they're very much related?

[idosubaru]

At risk of getting flamed for reviving a year+ old thread, it it possible to mount the XT6 oil pump to the EA82, as they're very much related?

no.

[92_rugby_subie]

Hey this is about Ned

The lifter tick is back... but I will be either replacing the engine with an SPFI block soon or I will get the banjo bolt relief springs and replace those... Will also check and see if just some DD can quiet down Neds TOD.

[NickNakorn]

I've had several EA82 engined cars over the years and only had the TOD on my last one (Engine now rebuilt - see http://www.nagara.co.uk/carhome.htm) at about 165,000 miles. The previous car ran quietly for 200,000 miles and, though it overheated badly a few times due to blown hoses and a worn out radiator, was a really smooth runner. The noisy car was in a sad state when I bought it and had a bad oil leak. The quiet one was much better with only minor oil leaks so I think oil flow and pressure are vitally important. Like many here, I replaced seals, oil-pump rotor and so-on on the noisy one without any improvement lasting more than a day. Now the full rebuild has included everything on the list I had not already done (though some new seals were replaced again) - new lifters too. So far, very quiet but the car is not yet on the road again as I'm finishing all the welding. Lets hope it stays quiet!   

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

About This:

 

 

...

4. The main reason that MMO/ATF/Rislone work to quiet EA82 lifters temporarily is due to nothing more than a reduction in the viscosity of the oil. These products are light oils that are heavy in detergents. They have about an SAE 10 rating for viscosity. Coupled with the tendancy for engine oil to increase it's viscosity with age - 3 brand new quarts of SAE 30 oil and 1 quart of detergent-heavy SAE 10 makes for a big reduction in viscosity immediately following an oil change.

...

 

 

 

My Own experience about the Relation between the Tickin' Lifters and Oil Viscosity is Backwards ...   ...please let me Explain:

 

I Live in the Warm ~ Template Caribbean Climates of Honduras, so I Always Use SAE 20W~50 Motor Oil on my EA82 "BumbleBeast" since it was almost new, now the engine has 300,000 miles so far... it Still Runs Strong and Smooth as a Weberized and well maintained EA82 could achieve.

 

It doesn't have the "Tick of Death" problem, but tends to be a Li'l "Noisy" on its Hydraulic Lifters (Not too Noisy as the T.O.D.) only when is first started on Cold Mornings of our Winter times... and when I let it Idle in the Morning for a While, but the noise Dissapears after I start Driving (when Oil Pressure increases), and it doesn't come back for the Rest of the Day.  There's absolutely no Hydraulic Lifters' noise during our Summer morning starts nor in the rest of the Warm-to-Hot Climates months we have here.

 

BUT if I pour 15W~40 Motor Oil on my "BumbleBeast" which I had to do a couple of times, the Same Hydraulic Lifters' noise not only increases a Little, but it Stays all day Long, despite the li'l increased oil pressure on the System, due to the thinner oil.

 

The Question is: Why?  

 

 

...and I believe that the Answer could be this:

 

 

 

 

... You are doing more harm than good typically as the thinner oil lubricates less effectively ...

 

What do you Think about this?

 

Kind Regards.

[MilesFox]

Pac-Man is hiding in your cam towers.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

 

Pac Man Hiding in my Subie's Cam Towers?

 

 

 

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

The Pac Man idea sounds funny but I Don't understand completely what you're trying to explain...

 

Well, I believe that I forget to write some Background info of my EA82's History: 

 

As I wrote in my "BumbleBeast" Thread, I had to change Both Heads and Valves in 1995, also 

 

the Waterpump and the Old "Rubber-Only" Seals with the Newer "Metal Core" Seals back then,

 

I did the Weber Swap in 2006 and a new Oil Pump in 2007, But everything else in the Engine is Stock.

 

So, I don't believe that worn seals are acting as "Pac Man" ... isn't it?

 

Maybe I'm lost in translation again...

 

 

 

The fact is that a thinner oil than 20W~50 does make my EA82 Noisy...

 

 

 

... once per year I do an Engine Flush and I pour an "Hydraulic Lifters' Additive" to the Fresh oil.

 

 

 

Kind Regards.

Edited by Loyale 2.7 Turbo, 19 February 2013 - 10:54 PM.