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DL Square Headlight upgrades?


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18 replies to this topic

#1 sl33py

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 01:38 PM

I'm new... I'm posting up a bunch of questions (typically after also searching) - so first off - thanks for all the help!!!

I really like the 4 headlights on the DL, but have run upgraded lenses/bulbs on my landcruisers for years and it's one of my "must have" upgrades.

That should be able to apply to the DL... i think.

I know I have the 165mm x 100mm or 6.5" x 4" lenses (stock = sealed). Correct so far?

Daniel Stern has some 165x100 Cibie's (have the round cibies in my 60 = :slobber:). I really like the e-code light pattern (flat horizontal cutoff and good side coverage), but again am unsure if it applies.

So to get to the point:

The 6.5" x 4" lenses should be a swap in w/o issue right? Not seeing much besides Daniel Stern that are 165x100.

h4 or h1 swap? I currently have just outside low, inside high right? So no need for dual filament h4?

I've found some on fleabay (link) that are still $, but not like $$$ @ Daniel Stern.

Where i really start to get lost is the different bulbs... the kit above has some adapter for 9007's, where DS has h4/h1's. Though mine are sealed - is the plug the same/compatible w/ h4 or h1? or 9007?

I'm reading up on the relay "upgrade", but am pretty sure just new lens/bulbs would probably help a lot.

OK - i'll quit rambling. I would like to swap/upgrade my lows for daily driving, without too much trouble. I *can* save $$ for DS's cibies which i'm pretty sure would be nice, or maybe something similar to the ebay ones? h1 vs 9007?

Someone out there will know - thanks for the help!

rob

#2 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 01:49 PM

Outers are high/low so you need the H4's. You have to rewire the outer's plug to match the H4 pinout since the sealed beams use a different pinout. Works fine if you rewire them though. My friend has a set on his Brat. PM renob123 (Jacob) for the details on the wireing change. He spent some time googleing and came up with some diagrams but some weren't right. Ends up I think you just have to swap two of the wires and they will work without issue.

Great upgrade BTW. Definitely reccomend it.

I know there are other off-brands that make the H4 conversion lenses too. Just have to look around. Might ask Jacob where he got his.

BTW - you should always post the year/model of your car. I can read between the lines and tell you have an EA82 DL (85 to 89) but some other people will be confused because DL's came with different headlight systems prior to '85, etc.

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 10 August 2010 - 01:52 PM.


#3 The Dude Abides

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 01:51 PM

Im pretty sure you will need to upgrade some wireing but i run the sylvan silverstars on my DL and they work great. They dont have alot of the blue hue that the light bulbs do. I hear GE Nighthawks are the brightest factory light available without upgrading wireing. Others have upgraded so they will be able to help more. I drove my DL as a daily driver for 4 years with the silverstars and they have worked great.

#4 sl33py

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 02:17 PM

Outers are high/low so you need the H4's. You have to rewire the outer's plug to match the H4 pinout since the sealed beams use a different pinout. Works fine if you rewire them though. My friend has a set on his Brat. PM renob123 (Jacob) for the details on the wireing change. He spent some time googleing and came up with some diagrams but some weren't right. Ends up I think you just have to swap two of the wires and they will work without issue.

Great upgrade BTW. Definitely reccomend it.

I know there are other off-brands that make the H4 conversion lenses too. Just have to look around. Might ask Jacob where he got his.

BTW - you should always post the year/model of your car. I can read between the lines and tell you have an EA82 DL (85 to 89) but some other people will be confused because DL's came with different headlight systems prior to '85, etc.

GD


Thanks GD! Mine is an 88. I'll make sure and post that next time.

I'll do some searches for renob123's posts to see if he put it online somewhere i haven't looked yet. Then if i that doesn't turn up anything, i'll PM him and post it up for the next DL owner's info.

so pinout means it's not a H4 plug right?

See i'm a total noob... just got it licensed yesterday after work and didn't think to throw the brights on to see if they were hi/lo or just low w/ high's in the center bulbs... :-\ Drove it to Alki for volleyball and then rode the bike into work today.

h4's it is - i'll keep digging for more info. Thanks!!!

#5 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 02:21 PM

I don't think he has posted anything about it here or anywhere else. I just know he recently did the conversion because I was on the phone with him trying to figure out the wireing change that was needed. He got it figured out but I don't know exactly which wires he changed since I wasn't there.

GD

#6 sl33py

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 02:32 PM

Im pretty sure you will need to upgrade some wireing but i run the sylvan silverstars on my DL and they work great. They dont have alot of the blue hue that the light bulbs do. I hear GE Nighthawks are the brightest factory light available without upgrading wireing. Others have upgraded so they will be able to help more. I drove my DL as a daily driver for 4 years with the silverstars and they have worked great.



Thanks man - so you are running the silverstar sealed beams as upgrades vs stock?

That's my fallback plan i think. I ran silverstars previously in my cruiser. Much better than stock, BUT honestly nowhere near the output of the upgraded h4's (i ran just slightly higher wattage bulbs to be fair).

output aside (though obviously important) - my biggest improvement seemed to come from the better light pattern.

Found an old pic when i compared the Cibie's with non silverstar stock bulb:
Posted Image

The pattern is much more flat and wider overall, plus has a defined cutoff at the top. The small "kick" up and to the right also seemed to be nice for the right side w/o blinding folks oncoming.

I'm hoping to have similar luck w/ some equivalent square e-code lenses for the 88 DL - think that's doable or am i dreaming?

Thanks guys!

rob

#7 renob123

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 03:51 PM

Ok. Here are a few things that I wish I knew when I started:

1) Unlike all other rectangular sealed beam units, the 165mm ones use a different wiring setup than their bulb-in-a-housing counterparts. You can do what I did and try every different combination (or is that permutation?) of wires until the brights come on and stay off when they should, or you can get an adapter. The eBay link you posted includes the adapter you need. Pooparu ran that configuration and had no problems, although his setup is a little fancier:) This link shows the adapter. The extra pictures show the differences in pinouts: http://www.rallyligh...ail.aspx?ID=120

2) I opted for AutoPal lights from eBay. They have the best reputation of the "budget" conversion kits. Hellas and Cibies are popular, but they were too expensive for me. I run H4s on the outside and H1s on the inside. The H4s have both high and low beams. I'm pretty sure that H4 is the same as 9007, which may be where some of your confusion is. I think that one spec is for Europe, and the other is for the US, but it's cheaper for bulb manufacturers to make one bulb that complies with both. The H4s work great with stock wiring. I'm not so sure about the H1s. I went with stock wattage, but there's just something about them I don't trust. They take like 1/2 of a second to turn on, which I assume is bad for wiring.

3) The AutoPal lights aren't meant for a common-positive system. This doesn't matter for the H4s, I don't think, but for the brights (H1s), you need to keep the metal of the headlight housing from touching the metal of the mount and screws. I took carfreak's advice and wrapped a bunch of duct tape around them. If not, then they'll always stay on.

I'm running the bulbs I got from AutoPal, but they're cheap, so I got some Sylvania Xtravisions to go in later. From my research, they're the same as the SilverStars only without the blue coating, so they're superior and very similar (if not the same) to the stuff Daniel Stern sells from Osram.

I hope that helped.

Jacob

#8 sl33py

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 04:02 PM

I pinged Renob123 to see what he says and any suggestions he has since he's done this already.

I'm looking at some fleabay lenses w/ h4 and h1 bulbs (low/hi h4, hi h1) - can you help me clarify the connector type on the stock sealed bulbs?

Hi/Low's - h4666 or h4656?
Hi's - h4651?

Is that correct?

thx!

rob

#9 renob123

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 04:15 PM

I pinged Renob123 to see what he says and any suggestions he has since he's done this already.

I'm looking at some fleabay lenses w/ h4 and h1 bulbs (low/hi h4, hi h1) - can you help me clarify the connector type on the stock sealed bulbs?

Hi/Low's - h4666 or h4656?
Hi's - h4651?

Is that correct?

thx!

rob


Hmm, I get the feeling you didn't read that big-rump roast post I just put up...

If I remember correctly, mine was 4656 for the lows. Read and understand my last post before acting on that, though. The high beam connector wasn't even close to the H1 replacement. Just pop the spade connectors out of the connector and plug them straight to the bulb. No fancy harness needed.

Jacob

#10 sl33py

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 04:18 PM

Ok. Here are a few things that I wish I knew when I started:

1) Unlike all other rectangular sealed beam units, the 165mm ones use a different wiring setup than their bulb-in-a-housing counterparts. You can do what I did and try every different combination (or is that permutation?) of wires until the brights come on and stay off when they should, or you can get an adapter. The eBay link you posted includes the adapter you need. Pooparu ran that configuration and had no problems, although his setup is a little fancier:) This link shows the adapter. The extra pictures show the differences in pinouts: http://www.rallyligh...ail.aspx?ID=120

2) I opted for AutoPal lights from eBay. They have the best reputation of the "budget" conversion kits. Hellas and Cibies are popular, but they were too expensive for me. I run H4s on the outside and H1s on the inside. The H4s have both high and low beams. I'm pretty sure that H4 is the same as 9007, which may be where some of your confusion is. I think that one spec is for Europe, and the other is for the US, but it's cheaper for bulb manufacturers to make one bulb that complies with both. The H4s work great with stock wiring. I'm not so sure about the H1s. I went with stock wattage, but there's just something about them I don't trust. They take like 1/2 of a second to turn on, which I assume is bad for wiring.

3) The AutoPal lights aren't meant for a common-positive system. This doesn't matter for the H4s, I don't think, but for the brights (H1s), you need to keep the metal of the headlight housing from touching the metal of the mount and screws. I took carfreak's advice and wrapped a bunch of duct tape around them. If not, then they'll always stay on.

I'm running the bulbs I got from AutoPal, but they're cheap, so I got some Sylvania Xtravisions to go in later. From my research, they're the same as the SilverStars only without the blue coating, so they're superior and very similar (if not the same) to the stuff Daniel Stern sells from Osram.

I hope that helped.

Jacob


Thanks Jacob! I was typing slow i guess...

I'm looking at some of the AutoPal lenses on ebay - do you have any pics of yours installed? Any comparison shots vs stock?

I'd love the Cibie's, but damn they are $$$. Seems a bit ridiculous to spend $200+ on lenses for this wagon.

so i'll definitely need an adapter to use h4's w/ stock plug right? I'll see if i can find ones that aren't $15 ea.

I appreciate the help and info!

rob

#11 sl33py

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 04:19 PM

Hmm, I get the feeling you didn't read that big-rump roast post I just put up...

If I remember correctly, mine was 4656 for the lows. Read and understand my last post before acting on that, though. The high beam connector wasn't even close to the H1 replacement. Just pop the spade connectors out of the connector and plug them straight to the bulb. No fancy harness needed.

Jacob


Dammit... twice... i'm typing slow today it looks like!

#12 renob123

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 04:24 PM

Dammit... twice... i'm typing slow today it looks like!


Hmm, that would explain it:)

You don't need a harness. Mine work fine without one. You just need to understand how the lights and wiring work. Then you plug the right wire into the right connector on the new housing. It's way easier to use the adapter, though. That eBay link you posted included them. The Autopal people sell them separately, though.

I never took before/after shots because I didn't get the lighting thing figured out until I had all of them in. Plus I had Silverstars in before, and I switched to cheap AutoPal bulbs. I'm thinking I'll see the real gains once I throw in the Xtravision bulbs.

Jacob

#13 sl33py

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 04:51 PM

Cool. I did some more digging and found some useful info on the h4656 vs h4666 bulbs:

From a forum guy called G-Man on bobistheoilguy forum (i have no idea...) - regardless it seems to help sort it out for me. That and Osram/Sylvania bulb guide confirmed my 88 DL uses h4656 bulbs.

Okay, I did a little online research and then rode up to Advance Auto (which is open 24/7 now) to look at some sealed beams.

the H4666 sealed beam is a 65w/55w hi-lo 165mm lamp developed strictly for use in two-headlamp applications.

The standard 165mm sealed beam is the H4656. The H4656 is 35w/35w hi-lo and was designed for use in four-headlamp applications.

The H4656 uses the exact same plug as the H4, only the pin out is different.

The H4666 uses a modified plug where one of the pins is at an angle. This prevents this higher wattage sealed beam from being used in applications that call for the H4656.


So... this sorts out which is what, and which i will need.

A bonus here is that I know i have two 35w hi/low's vs two 60/55 hi/low's. So simply going to the h4's will be a big increase in light output. Paired with a decent lens/reflector (i'm going e-code i hope) should give a really nice pattern for all that extra output!

I will take some pics before i do any swaps (be a while w/ shipping anyway). I'll definitely update this thread so someone else can find it later.

Thanks guys!

rob

#14 TeamCF

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 01:20 PM

Your gonna love the upgrade.
Just get yourself a voltmeter that shows +/- voltage so you can figure out which is which on the wiring.
I ended up scraping ALL the stock wiring pretty much all the way to the switch in the end when I did mine and redoing it all with 30amp relays and 10 & 12 ga. wire. (I know, overkill, but on electrical overkill is fine in my book)
That right there upped the brightness alot. The stock wiring was pretty crap after almost 30 years and was sucking some of the power.

Headlights themselves are powered direct from the battery now. And the relays don't care about +/-. :)
If you go the wiring route. Remember to fuse it at the battery. I forget but I used a 10 amp low beam, 15 high beam I think....... Been awhile.

With the sylvainia xtravision H4 bulbs. I can be on the freeway next to a luxury car, and my conversion throws down as much light as their HIDs. :eek:
So remember to properly adjust them. Or you'll blow out the retinas of others. :lol:

#15 The Dude Abides

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 01:53 PM

Yea i wouldnt mind doing this upgrade. But when i got the car i bought the silverstars because i had a headlight out. I didnt expect them to last this long but there still going strong. But your right, not near as strong as the conversion you are talking about.

#16 sl33py

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 02:55 PM

thanks guys. I ordered the AutoPal ones like Jacob - just too much for the DS Cibies... :(

I also ordered the h4 adapters - i'm not going to mess with rewiring if i can help it.

I took some crummy cell phone pics of low's and high's last night when i got home. I'll try to take better ones from the same location to compare (with my nice camera).

The kit i got has both low and high lenses - basically all 4 for the price of one Cibie lens. :lol:

Honestly I think i may have gone a bit off the deep end (i do that sometimes)... I also ordered the same HID kit i got on my Buell - 55w goodness. I'd like to have pics of stock, h4 w/ ecode lenses, and HID w/ ecode lenses. Should be entertaining. The advantage of HID (besides more output) i think will be also getting power from the battery like doing the relay wiring.

I'll keep this updated of course. Hopefully will be helpful to the next noobie. ;)

rob

#17 renob123

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 03:02 PM

thanks guys. I ordered the AutoPal ones like Jacob - just too much for the DS Cibies... :(

I also ordered the h4 adapters - i'm not going to mess with rewiring if i can help it.

I took some crummy cell phone pics of low's and high's last night when i got home. I'll try to take better ones from the same location to compare (with my nice camera).

The kit i got has both low and high lenses - basically all 4 for the price of one Cibie lens. :lol:

Honestly I think i may have gone a bit off the deep end (i do that sometimes)... I also ordered the same HID kit i got on my Buell - 55w goodness. I'd like to have pics of stock, h4 w/ ecode lenses, and HID w/ ecode lenses. Should be entertaining. The advantage of HID (besides more output) i think will be also getting power from the battery like doing the relay wiring.

I'll keep this updated of course. Hopefully will be helpful to the next noobie. ;)

rob


Hmm, I don't remember seeing an auction that had all four lights. Are you sure you didn't get one high and one low?

Jacob

#18 sl33py

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 03:33 PM

Hmm, I don't remember seeing an auction that had all four lights. Are you sure you didn't get one high and one low?

Jacob


You're right. I bought the hi/low set x2. so all 4 from two sets. The autopal ebay store had them in lows or highs as sets, this was just both (1 of ea).

Here's a link to the ones i got.

I got the "crystal" sets for a purpose. May look a little out of place on an 80's wagon, but the HID's are not very directional, so this *should* help prevent a lot of the light bleed. They have that inside cap dealio which should block the forward projection from the bulb, limiting it back into the reflector.

I'll let you guys know when i get them and pics of how they look. Maybe a bit "fast and furious" looking, but if the pattern and brightness is there - i don't particularly care. :-\

rob

#19 TeamCF

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 10:35 PM

When I did mine I used the ones made by Pilot. They are also the multi-reflector with a smooth lens. Only thing I didn't like was Pilot stopped using the little "cap" over the end of the bulb (I thought I got a bad set, they said no, they just stopped putting them in altogether). Beam pattern still cuts off nice and sharp. But they projected a bit to much straight up. (not glaring to others but made a "wall" of light for me in fog/rain/snow/ect.) A strip of electrical tape over the top edge of the lens fixed it without affecting the beam on the road, but gave it the "eyebrow" look.
So yeah mine work great but turned out all rice looking....:lol:
But they were only like $35 for a set of two.

I'm gonna switch to the Hella's one day when I feel rich, they are all over around here in the Baxters for like $50 or so each.

Or I've noticed they now have a 4656 that uses a projector inside. And it's HID. WAAAYYY ultra rice, but if it rocks a good beam pattern, I could give a rat what others think (They are putting them on the TriMet buses around town I noticed.....). Living where I do bright well controlled beams are a must, practically live in a cloud all winter up here in the foothills.




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