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So...Am I the first to have a Frankenmotor in his Brat?


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#1 renob123

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 02:43 PM

I tried searching, but I can't find another case of this. Yesterday the Frankenstein motor went into the Brat and fired up. There's still a bit to do before it'll be race-ready, and I'm sure nothing in that car can hold that amount of torque, but I wanted to check to see if anyone else had put this in a Brat. Here's the big thread at NABISCO on the High Compression Frankenstein build. It's supposed to be one of the best power upgrades to a car that came with an EJ22. After a short run, I think I agree:banana:

http://forums.nasioc...p/t-631527.html

Jacob

#2 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 02:00 AM

I drove it. It's nuts.

Brat's should not have that much power. Very dangerous.

Steering under acceleration like that is like trying to steer a jet-boat by dragging and oar alongside :rolleyes:. EA81 Suspension < EJ25 Frankenmotor.

It will BURY the speedo. I have no idea how fast I was going but I'm sure it was close to triple digits.

Something is going to break - I wouldn't be surprised if it frags that transmission on dirt. There's more power than I could even use on my test drive - it's like driving a WRX but without the turbo lag and with a really sketch suspension - feels like a WRX powered sand rail on the freeway :dead:

:grin:

GD

#3 eulogious

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 10:47 AM

Nice!! Was this the motor you mentioned to me GD? Sounds like it :D

Can we get the "readers digest" version of the build? I am just looking for specs, and what is different to give it that much more power... that nabisco thread is pretty long...

What type of power do you think it's putting down? A dyno run would be sweet... but I understand if that doesn't happen, it is a Brat afterall, not an STI :rolleyes: :lol:

Either way, I think I have found the motor to replace my ea82t when it poops out on me :)

I take it GD helped with it? You got any pics?

Good job guys!

#4 renob123

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:13 AM

Nice!! Was this the motor you mentioned to me GD? Sounds like it :D

Can we get the "readers digest" version of the build? I am just looking for specs, and what is different to give it that much more power... that nabisco thread is pretty long...

What type of power do you think it's putting down? A dyno run would be sweet... but I understand if that doesn't happen, it is a Brat afterall, not an STI :rolleyes: :lol:

Either way, I think I have found the motor to replace my ea82t when it poops out on me :)

I take it GD helped with it? You got any pics?

Good job guys!


I was thinking about writing something up. The benefit of the Frankenmotor is that it's as easy as replacing head gaskets, only you use a different block when you reassemble. I'd take pics of it, but it looks the same as any other EJ-swapped Brat. Yes, GD helped by torquing the heads, giving advice/verbal abuse:lol:, and use of tools/garage.

I went with:

-Phase I EJ22 heads. They're dual port, so I could keep my awesome eBay header.
-Phase I EJ25 block. I'd prefer a phase II, but I couldn't find one cheap and local in the timeframe I wanted.
-Delta Cams. I opted for the torque grind. I was told by them that the power would come on at 1200 RPM. I believe it:banana:
-Thick OEM head gaskets. There are two thicknesses of the new MLS gaskets. I went with the thick one because the Phase I EJ25 has the "peeping tom" pistons, and the Frankenmotor is high compression, so the thicker one gives me a bigger margin of error.

My concerns now are:

-Stuff will definitely break now. I don't know which thing is first, but I hope it's easy to replace.
-The idle is weird. I don't care that much if everything is working, but RPM hunting and mild shaking makes me think something is wrong. If it turns out to be the cams (which I hear happens but is rare), then I'd put the weird idle issue in the "Totally Worth It" category.
-Suspension and brakes are hilariously inadequate for this.

I did a lot of research going into this. We're looking at something like 11:1 (I've read between 10.8-11.3) compression and somewhere between 160-205HP. The estimates/dyno figures I've seen don't always specify WHP or CHP, so I'm not sure where I am. The torque is off the charts, though.

Jacob

#5 eulogious

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:35 AM

:eek: Dang! That's some nice power out of a N/A motor! Good job man!

I will be curious to see what you come up with about the idle issue and what needs to happen to fix it, so please keep us informed!

I am also curious as to what upgrade you are thinking about doing to try to solve the handling/braking issue. Probably a five lug swap, or something along those lines... I am guessing at some point you will probably get a full EJ drive terrain and suspension up under it, then WRX gear will just fit right up! But I really don't know what I am talking about :lol: So what do you have planned?

I can imagine trying to keep that beast under control must be a challenge! A fun challenge, but a challenge non-the-less :D

I think this motor will be really good for my DD :lol: I have a 4eat already and it's going to get swapped out with one out of an impreza that has been rebuilt and has 4.11 gears :D, so this will be sweet with full time AWD and all the yummy torque :grin: The 4eat is a stout enough trans for the svx, well they do tend to eat trannies like no other sometimes but its WAY heavier than my ea82 wagon and probably has 30-50 more hp so no wonder it eats them..., it should be a good match for me!

Man having all that torque right off idle would be just fantastic, especially teamed up with AWD and lower final drive gearing, that's just freakin' sweet :grin:

With all that torque and my paddle shifters, would I really need/want low range gearing (aka a D/R)? More of a rhetorical question, but really makes me wonder if I would really need/want it, and I am leaning towards no, especially since I don't miss it now and love my 4eat :lol: I just like AWD alot :grin:

#6 renob123

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:54 AM

:eek: Dang! That's some nice power out of a N/A motor! Good job man!

I will be curious to see what you come up with about the idle issue and what needs to happen to fix it, so please keep us informed!

I am also curious as to what upgrade you are thinking about doing to try to solve the handling/braking issue. Probably a five lug swap, or something along those lines... I am guessing at some point you will probably get a full EJ drive terrain and suspension up under it, then WRX gear will just fit right up! But I really don't know what I am talking about :lol: So what do you have planned?

I can imagine trying to keep that beast under control must be a challenge! A fun challenge, but a challenge non-the-less :D

I think this motor will be really good for my DD :lol: I have a 4eat already and it's going to get swapped out with one out of an impreza that has been rebuilt and has 4.11 gears :D, so this will be sweet with full time AWD and all the yummy torque :grin: The 4eat is a stout enough trans for the svx, well they do tend to eat trannies like no other sometimes but its WAY heavier than my ea82 wagon and probably has 30-50 more hp so no wonder it eats them..., it should be a good match for me!

Man having all that torque right off idle would be just fantastic, especially teamed up with AWD and lower final drive gearing, that's just freakin' sweet :grin:

With all that torque and my paddle shifters, would I really need/want low range gearing (aka a D/R)? More of a rhetorical question, but really makes me wonder if I would really need/want it, and I am leaning towards no, especially since I don't miss it now and love my 4eat :lol: I just like AWD alot :grin:


I'm going to try to get away with not doing the 5-lug swap. I have mostly new braking components, and when I get them working correctly, they may be enough. I also have an EA82T master cylinder and booster, if I decide the stock brakes aren't enough when they're working correctly. I'm going with 2wd struts and RX springs to get a stiffer front and keep the same basic ride height. I already have front and rear swaybars. Adding power steering may help with driveability too.

I always wanted an SVX with paddle shifters and 4.44 final drive, but the Brat is my project and will be until I can't afford it, or I crash it. I'm reading up on Numbchux' EJ transmission stuff into EA case project. That may be a good way to go about beefing up the transmission. I'm not totally convinced that even early WRX transmissions will hold this torque. The RA-width ones, the 6-speed, and probably a 4.11 4EAT or 5EAT would, though, from what I've researched. This thing is for rallyx, so I'm hoping the wheelspin will help with longevity.

Jacob

#7 Subruise

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 01:23 PM

good lord man, i musta had enough beer to not fully grasp the insanity of that car when you were up here last. you NEED to suffer and drive it up here next time so i can see/believe it. oh btw that lagunitas stout kicked rump roast. much luck slowing that thing down, hope the brake stuff works


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#8 renob123

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 09:27 PM

good lord man, i musta had enough beer to not fully grasp the insanity of that car when you were up here last. you NEED to suffer and drive it up here next time so i can see/believe it. oh btw that lagunitas stout kicked rump roast. much luck slowing that thing down, hope the brake stuff works


RV


Well, when we met up, it was but a fevered dream of a madman. It came to life on Wednesday.

I guess I should start soliciting ideas on transmissions that can handle this thing.

Jacob

P.S. Can't say no to 10.14% alcohol in a beer that's so dark that light cannot escape its surface:)

#9 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 09:41 PM

IYes, GD helped by torquing the heads, giving advice/verbal abuse:lol:, and use of tools/garage.


:rolleyes:

Oh how I am trivialized! I remember taking care of quite a few things besides head torque. I recall setting front/rear mains, removing that horribly fretted crank timing sprocket, sealing the oil pump and pan, and setting the timing belt..... among other thing's I'm probably forgetting.

And who got the engine to sit down into the cross-member hhhmm? :)

All while finishing a valve job on a '97 Legacy and test driving it.

:lol:

The verbal abuse is the most fun. I still think people will pay me to abuse them in my shop :grin:

GD

#10 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 09:45 PM

As for the suspension..... well it's really squirly on the steering when you get on the throttle. Wants to "float" and twitch all over the road. Scary.

I think perhaps the rear needs to be stiffened to keep the front on the ground. The weight shift from acceleration is unloading the front end. At least that's how it feels to me.

I chirped the front tires going into third gear.... on accident :rolleyes:.

GD

#11 renob123

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 09:55 PM

As for the suspension..... well it's really squirly on the steering when you get on the throttle. Wants to "float" and twitch all over the road. Scary.

I think perhaps the rear needs to be stiffened to keep the front on the ground. The weight shift from acceleration is unloading the front end. At least that's how it feels to me.

I chirped the front tires going into third gear.... on accident :rolleyes:.

GD


And blood. We both contributed blood to this project...

Jacob

#12 lumpycam

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 11:17 AM

Sorry but I built one two years ago in a gen one brat.I was crazy and made it rwd, Les schwab loves me!:burnout: I too love the torque of the frankenmotor.I used the same combo but with delta 230 grind cams.I ported and polished the dp heads and built custom headers.That darn built in rev limiter keeps the rpms with in check or so I thought. Just last week I broke a piston while messing around in a parking lot. Get use to breakage, the rear suspension just wasn't meant to handle that abuse.I set my new swap up for awd with legacy 5mt trans but haven't installed open center diff yet.It's cool to see more high compression motors being built. Good luck with your project and have fun!

#13 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 11:21 AM

Did you discover what caused the piston breakage? Did a cylinder go lean or something?

GD

#14 renob123

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 12:04 PM

Sorry but I built one two years ago in a gen one brat.I was crazy and made it rwd, Les schwab loves me!:burnout: I too love the torque of the frankenmotor.I used the same combo but with delta 230 grind cams.I ported and polished the dp heads and built custom headers.That darn built in rev limiter keeps the rpms with in check or so I thought. Just last week I broke a piston while messing around in a parking lot. Get use to breakage, the rear suspension just wasn't meant to handle that abuse.I set my new swap up for awd with legacy 5mt trans but haven't installed open center diff yet.It's cool to se in ine more high compression motors being built. Good luck with your project and have fun!


Hmm, I guess I could get more specific and ask if anyone put one in an EA81 Brat. If that didn't work, then an EA81 Brat that's half blue and half gray:)

Jacob

#15 WoodsWagon

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 04:37 AM

As for the suspension..... well it's really squirly on the steering when you get on the throttle. Wants to "float" and twitch all over the road. Scary.

I think perhaps the rear needs to be stiffened to keep the front on the ground. The weight shift from acceleration is unloading the front end. At least that's how it feels to me.

I chirped the front tires going into third gear.... on accident :rolleyes:.

GD


The EA front suspension is usually garbage when you start putting power to it. When the front lifts, the camber shifts quickly to positive, which puts the contact patch outside the SAI and gives twitchy steering depending on which tire has traction. Strut rod bushings are also a big contributor to that, I've had luck drilling clearance holes on the rear washers and putting an extra pair on each side to really crush the bushings.

Wait till you have it in the rain, it's really rediculous having to use 4wd to pull away from a stoplight without spinning the front wheels and sliding into the car next to you.

#16 renob123

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 09:07 PM

The EA front suspension is usually garbage when you start putting power to it. When the front lifts, the camber shifts quickly to positive, which puts the contact patch outside the SAI and gives twitchy steering depending on which tire has traction. Strut rod bushings are also a big contributor to that, I've had luck drilling clearance holes on the rear washers and putting an extra pair on each side to really crush the bushings.

Wait till you have it in the rain, it's really rediculous having to use 4wd to pull away from a stoplight without spinning the front wheels and sliding into the car next to you.


Poor-weather traction is definitely a concern. I don't see the point in having a Subaru that can't go in the snow. I honestly didn't know it would be this crazy, and now I'm hoping I didn't shoot myself in the foot on this one.

Jacob

#17 WoodsWagon

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 10:11 PM

4wd with a clutch LSD in the rear makes it work great, as the front wheels can't break loose until both back wheels are spinning.

FWD is ok for just booting around town, and doing burnouts, but it takes a lot more care if you're trying to actually use the power. Throw it in 4wd and do some nice, stable, controlled powerslides on some dirt roads at rediculous speeds and you'll be content.

#18 renob123

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 12:03 PM

I just drove it in to work. It seems to run ok. I have a few observations that I encourage people to comment on or take into account for their own projects:

-It seems to run a lot cooler than the EJ22 before it. It's probably a good 10-20 degrees cooler everywhere, if not more.
-I think I could probably launch it in 4th gear:eek:
-The idle is weird. I cleaned the IACV and sprayed everything with brake cleaner to check for vacuum leaks, but I found nothing.

I'm sure I'll think of more later.

Jacob

#19 84gl

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 01:35 PM

I have traction problems and still run a ea81 Built mind you but still and ea81 I think it has to do withe the rear suspension more than the front Myself my brat was very bad for picking the front end up when I first put the motor in I rebuilt the front end replacing every thing and used RX springs on the front struts it helped alittle but not much adding ea82 rear struts may fix the front end lift I haven't tried it yet but I am going too


PS I have these problems with a ea81 thats putting 112 hp at the front wheels I would hate to know how bad it is with 160

#20 renob123

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 01:55 PM

I have traction problems and still run a ea81 Built mind you but still and ea81 I think it has to do withe the rear suspension more than the front Myself my brat was very bad for picking the front end up when I first put the motor in I rebuilt the front end replacing every thing and used RX springs on the front struts it helped alittle but not much adding ea82 rear struts may fix the front end lift I haven't tried it yet but I am going too


I added RX springs to 2wd struts last night. I haven't noticed a difference yet. I'm wondering if the guy accidentally sold me non-RX springs. They're not flat on one end like they should be. I'm working on something for the rear suspension. I think I'm in transmission-replacement denial right now, so I'm working on the other parts.

PS I have these problems with a ea81 thats putting 112 hp at the front wheels I would hate to know how bad it is with 160


It's awesome:burnout:while it lasts.

Jacob

#21 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 02:16 PM

PS I have these problems with a ea81 thats putting 112 hp at the front wheels I would hate to know how bad it is with 160


It's got to be more than 160. The stock EJ25 is 165 and with this high-compression setup it's definitely more than that. Conservative estimate I would put it around 180 at least - increase of compression from 9.5:1 to around 11:1 would account for at least 15 HP..... Maybe closer to 200 considering the header, cams, large exhaust, etc. With the torque ground cams it's hard to say what the HP is because the torque is so amazing that it's overpowering - you can't even really wrap the thing up much because it's just wheel-spin city.

If we could figure out the idle hunting and tendancy to die after cruising it would be perfect. Something is screwball and I think the OBD-I EJ22 ECU is totally confused with this engine. Might be that it's requireing fueling outside the bounds of the idle maps.

We may fix this with MegaSquirt. I know I want to - just depends on his funding level. :lol:

GD

#22 eulogious

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 02:45 PM

Or maybe a modded ECU might fix up that problem? hmmmm :D Now I have some more interested in that, since I want to put this motor into my car at some point. Something to think about…

A MS would most definitely fix the problem as well if the problem is with the ECU and it's fuel maps, there is just a lot more work with wiring and what not, but none the less would be equally as cool and give you loads of options to play with. You might even be able to get some more power out of it with a MS :eek:, though it sounds like you don't need any more power :lol:

#23 renob123

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 05:00 PM

EM is in the works. I just can't justify buying it until I have a better place to live.

On the observation front, I've noticed that with no pitch stopper, the transmission and linkage moves back under acceleration. When this happens, the 4WD lever moves up a bit. It almost seems like enough to accidentally pop it into 4WD mode one day. STI mounts don't seem like enough to keep this thing put anymore:banana:

Jacob

#24 84gl

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 05:28 PM

the rx springs have one flat end as do all 4wd ea82 front springs I've seen

#25 84gl

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 05:32 PM

It's got to be more than 160. The stock EJ25 is 165 and with this high-compression setup it's definitely more than that. Conservative estimate I would put it around 180 at least - increase of compression from 9.5:1 to around 11:1 would account for at least 15 HP..... Maybe closer to 200 considering the header, cams, large exhaust, etc. With the torque ground cams it's hard to say what the HP is because the torque is so amazing that it's overpowering - you can't even really wrap the thing up much because it's just wheel-spin city.

If we could figure out the idle hunting and tendancy to die after cruising it would be perfect. Something is screwball and I think the OBD-I EJ22 ECU is totally confused with this engine. Might be that it's requireing fueling outside the bounds of the idle maps.

We may fix this with MegaSquirt. I know I want to - just depends on his funding level. :lol:

GD


I was saying at the ground or front wheels not the flywheel you lose 10 to 15% of you hp throw you drive train that being said I probably 125-135 hp at the flywheel




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