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So...Am I the first to have a Frankenmotor in his Brat?


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101 replies to this topic

#76 Mykeys Toy

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 07:34 PM

Have you checked the master cylinder.. I bled the crap outta mine and still felt bad not spongy just like not enough pressure. Sure enough right front and left rear have half the pressure at best so is now on my to do list. For an upgrade without EJ brakes maybe some slotted ot drilled rotors and get HAwk brakes I think that should be enough to compensate for brakes that are too small for that kind of power. I have put some thought into upgrades for a while and without the 5 lug swap there isn't much we can do.

#77 renob123

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 07:48 PM

You need to do an AWD setup in your brat. I've got a phase 1 ej25 sitting at my house waiting for the same setup as yours. I'm going to be putting it in my AWD hatch next summer.


Hmm, I thought you'd dive right into a turbo project:-)

Have you checked the master cylinder.. I bled the crap outta mine and still felt bad not spongy just like not enough pressure. Sure enough right front and left rear have half the pressure at best so is now on my to do list. For an upgrade without EJ brakes maybe some slotted ot drilled rotors and get HAwk brakes I think that should be enough to compensate for brakes that are too small for that kind of power. I have put some thought into upgrades for a while and without the 5 lug swap there isn't much we can do.


I don't buy the fancy rotors thing. I do have fancy pads, though, and the master cylinder is a new reman. I thought my setup would be about right, but something isn't working. How do you check the line pressure?

Jacob

#78 Mykeys Toy

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 08:23 PM

There is a way but I with Turbones help just kinda eyeballed it.. Do you still have the hill holder hooked up. If the spring doesnt return completely you may be leaking there also but this is another one of those I have't done and experienced everything Subaru GD and a few others have a bit more practice, maybe one of them will chime in since I am just taking a stab in the dark.
As for the brake rotors that was just a though I haven't done anything like that yet. I am still doing some research before I spend any money it is healthier for me that way and the MRS won't have to beat me with a stick.

#79 Pooparu

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 09:40 AM

Hmm, I thought you'd dive right into a turbo project:-)


No way, All motor baby!

I tell ya going to 4.11 gears made a huge difference as well. It really brought the ej22 alive. I can't wait to feel how it goes with the frankenmotor in it. I'm going to do a bit of head work on mine as well. Port, polish & maybe bigger valves too. I'm hoping to get 200 at the wheels.

#80 renob123

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 09:57 AM

No way, All motor baby!

I tell ya going to 4.11 gears made a huge difference as well. It really brought the ej22 alive. I can't wait to feel how it goes with the frankenmotor in it. I'm going to do a bit of head work on mine as well. Port, polish & maybe bigger valves too. I'm hoping to get 200 at the wheels.


Nice. When it came to the port/polish/valves choice, I decided it was the point where the HP/$ ratio wasn't worth it for me. Adding the 2.5 block and cams were easy choices for the money, though.

I still need to come over and look at your setup. I'm trying to get the car ready for Sunday's rallyx, though. The fixes are going about 3 times slower than I expect them to.

Jacob

#81 LPGsuperchargedBrumby

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 02:42 AM

renob123 do you know the lift an duration of those delta cams your running?

#82 renob123

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 09:56 AM

renob123 do you know the lift an duration of those delta cams your running?


I don't know what I'd do with the information if I had it, so I never bothered asking. You can see if Delta Cams can send you the info. To save on long-distance calling, I'd PM Delta Cam here.

Jacob

#83 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 12:25 PM

I'm going to do a bit of head work on mine as well. Port, polish & maybe bigger valves too. I'm hoping to get 200 at the wheels.


I was told by my head shop that it wasn't worth it on the EJ22E heads. The cost is $100 per head for a port and polish and they would do it but he said the return on investment wasn't there for those heads - probably 5 HP or less. They were also like a week and a half out and we didn't have that much time so we opted to go with just rebuilt stock heads/valves. They do a lot of Subaru head work so I trust their judgement. But hey - if you have the time and money it's not likely to hurt performance and you might be surprised. But I think I would probably go with Phase-II heads if I were going to do it - for the roller rockers, solid lifters, etc.

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#84 T'subaru

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 10:59 PM

I started reading this thread and I couldnt stop, imagine installing an engine in your subi that cant be controlled...awesome!! I was hooked, and with all i have going on the last thing I need is to be drawn into doing another project, kind of like a horiffic accident that you just cant take your eyes off of :eek:
Great job renob123 and GD. I hope you dont break to many parts while figuring out how to tame the beast, and definately hope there is not a big crash.
I checked out the video on the idle issue but couldnt get any sound out of it....hey Rick, any chance there was a cheeseburger wrapper left in that one? :lol:
Good luck guys

Edited by T'subaru, 10 September 2010 - 11:03 PM.


#85 renob123

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 12:01 AM

I started reading this thread and I couldnt stop, imagine installing an engine in your subi that cant be controlled...awesome!! I was hooked, and with all i have going on the last thing I need is to be drawn into doing another project, kind of like a horiffic accident that you just cant take your eyes off of :eek:
Great job renob123 and GD. I hope you dont break to many parts while figuring out how to tame the beast, and definately hope there is not a big crash.
I checked out the video on the idle issue but couldnt get any sound out of it....hey Rick, any chance there was a cheeseburger wrapper left in that one? :lol:
Good luck guys


Funny. I was wondering if something was jammed in there too...

It's not THAT much power...it's just a lot more power than that car was intended to have. Over the coming weeks, things will get fixed. I'm sure the brakes are adequate once I get the sponge feeling out. I have a somewhat creative and possibly new plan for the suspension. There's a transmission that needs rebuilding that will likely handle the power. Then I can focus on funny stickers:-)

Jacob

#86 T'subaru

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 10:49 AM

Funny. I was wondering if something was jammed in there too...

It's not THAT much power...it's just a lot more power than that car was intended to have. Over the coming weeks, things will get fixed. I'm sure the brakes are adequate once I get the sponge feeling out. I have a somewhat creative and possibly new plan for the suspension. There's a transmission that needs rebuilding that will likely handle the power. Then I can focus on funny stickers:-)

Jacob


Hey renob123, im no authority on subaru performance goodies by far, but a fella in Baja posted up this link to an outfit he swears makes bullit proof trans that he used to run in some of the 250 and 500 races.
Cheers, Mark
http://www.importper...auto.shtml#main

#87 renob123

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 12:26 PM

Hey renob123, im no authority on subaru performance goodies by far, but a fella in Baja posted up this link to an outfit he swears makes bullit proof trans that he used to run in some of the 250 and 500 races.
Cheers, Mark
http://www.importper...auto.shtml#main


Ahh yes, they built the transmission for Knight Rally many years ago. They had paddle shifters behind a very powerful car. It's overkill for me, though, because stock 4EATs are in WRXs and SVXs.:grin:

Jacob

#88 vagen

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 04:46 PM

will stock 2.2 cams work with this engine? I am either building one of these or a frankin 2.2.

#89 renob123

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 04:50 PM

will stock 2.2 cams work with this engine? I am either building one of these or a frankin 2.2.


They will. Lots of people go for cams since the engine is out anyway, though.

Jacob

#90 dibs

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 03:16 AM

just wonderin has any one done a carbied dizzy motor theres one here in ozz works ok no electrics to stuff up in the bush

dibs

#91 renob123

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:26 AM

just wonderin has any one done a carbied dizzy motor theres one here in ozz works ok no electrics to stuff up in the bush

dibs


Done a Frankenmotor with a dizzy? A guy on NASIOC said he did one for some kind of go-kart.

Jacob

#92 Turbone

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:34 AM

just wonderin has any one done a carbied dizzy motor theres one here in ozz works ok no electrics to stuff up in the bush

dibs


Bratsrus1 has a carbed/disty EJ18 in his modded Hatch.
He got the disty parts from a mate in Oz too.

#93 el_freddo

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 01:04 PM

Sorry to dig up an old thread - But AWESOME!!! And I'm also not happy that I've been directed to this thread, too many ideas that I don't have time/money for :(

But I am looking into a set of cams on my ~91 EJ22 for some low down torque. I'm just hoping there won't be an idle hunt like what you've been experiencing renob123. My theory on your issue here is that the factory EJ22 ECU is running in a pre programmed loop mode when at idle, so it's only giving the engine enough fuel to idle a stock EJ22, thus the hunting as it ups the fuel to keep it running. Bigger injectors may fix the problem but what will it do to the rest of the rev range? Fuel pressure might be the trick, I think this could only be a good think when heading further up the revs too.

Did you manage to find a fix to this idle issue?

I only have a stock EJ22 in mine, but the way I took care of wheels spin is 5 lug swap and wrx rims and tires. You WILL break your tranny. My EA82 trans. lasted about 3 years before it walked out the door screaming.


I'm hoping my EA82 5spd holds up longer than this... otherwise I'd better be getting a replacement sorted!!

Wouldn't it also allow you to stay with ODBI instead of having to wire in all the other junk to get ODBII to work for the whole 2.5? Weren't all 2.5's, or most anyways, ODBII?

To me the frankenmotor not only puts out great power right off idle, but also allows you to keep with the more simpler ODBI setup. I could be off on that, but that's what it seems like to me, so please correct me if I am wrong :D I would much rather have the simpler setup installed because it will allow me to "hack" it more without the addition more sensors and other stuff that will just complicate everything. To me that is one of the main reason why I like my older soob is because it's simple, so I would like to keep it that way as much as possible :grin:


I don't understand what the ODB stands for - and I'm not really a noob either, just never come across this term on the aussie forums (ausubaru.com). I'm guessing being a ~91 it would be a ODBI ECU...

Here, try this:


^ This is what I want to avoid on my DD stock EJ22 if I go with a set of delta cams.

Don't you think it's odd that the computer can't figure out how to keep the injectors open a little longer? If it's keeping them open the same length of time until it almost dies then kicks it up, then I wonder if a slight increase in line pressure would trick it.

I doubt a 2.5 ECU would plug into '92-ish 2.2 wiring. If it did, though, it would be sweet because I'd get a higher redline, I think.


I don't know about the 2.5 ECU, but my opinion on what might fix this idling issue is in the top paragraphs. I'm keen to know if you have any updates on how this thing is running? I've also read your gearbox thread, sounds like a real animal even more so now!

I'm also keen to know the rev count at 60 mph ;)

I think I've just found a new dream :D :( :rolleyes:

Cheers

Bennie

#94 renob123

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 01:40 PM

Sorry to dig up an old thread - But AWESOME!!! And I'm also not happy that I've been directed to this thread, too many ideas that I don't have time/money for :(

But I am looking into a set of cams on my ~91 EJ22 for some low down torque. I'm just hoping there won't be an idle hunt like what you've been experiencing renob123. My theory on your issue here is that the factory EJ22 ECU is running in a pre programmed loop mode when at idle, so it's only giving the engine enough fuel to idle a stock EJ22, thus the hunting as it ups the fuel to keep it running. Bigger injectors may fix the problem but what will it do to the rest of the rev range? Fuel pressure might be the trick, I think this could only be a good think when heading further up the revs too.

Did you manage to find a fix to this idle issue?



I'm hoping my EA82 5spd holds up longer than this... otherwise I'd better be getting a replacement sorted!!



I don't understand what the ODB stands for - and I'm not really a noob either, just never come across this term on the aussie forums (ausubaru.com). I'm guessing being a ~91 it would be a ODBI ECU...



^ This is what I want to avoid on my DD stock EJ22 if I go with a set of delta cams.



I don't know about the 2.5 ECU, but my opinion on what might fix this idling issue is in the top paragraphs. I'm keen to know if you have any updates on how this thing is running? I've also read your gearbox thread, sounds like a real animal even more so now!

I'm also keen to know the rev count at 60 mph ;)

I think I've just found a new dream :D :( :rolleyes:

Cheers

Bennie


I haven't fixed the idle issue, but it still hasn't bothered me. GD has a theory that we will test one of these weekends, though. I'll update this thread if it works.

Lots of people have run cams on a stock 2.2 without this weird idle issue. I don't know what the difference is between stock cams and Delta cams from a technical standpoint, but I have a hard time believing that they require that much more fuel at idle than stock. Therefore, I'm not totally sure I buy your fuel map theory. I think it's the cams changing the amount of vacuum in the cylinder along with the different dynamic compression of the Frankenmotor. I have been considering a different FPR or injectors, though. If they fix it, then I guess your theory is better than mine.

"ODB" stands for Ol' Dirty Bastard, a rapper in the '90s. "OBD" stands for On Board Diagnostics. It's an industry standard for ECUs. The switch from OBDI to OBDII happened around 1995 or so in the US. I don't know how it works everywhere else, though.

My speedo is off because of the transmission swap, but next time I drive it, I'll see if I can come up with the RPMs at 60. It's hot here, so recently I've been driving my car that has AC.

Jacob

#95 el_freddo

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 02:54 PM

I haven't fixed the idle issue, but it still hasn't bothered me. GD has a theory that we will test one of these weekends, though. I'll update this thread if it works.


I'm looking forward to it!

Lots of people have run cams on a stock 2.2 without this weird idle issue. I don't know what the difference is between stock cams and Delta cams from a technical standpoint, but I have a hard time believing that they require that much more fuel at idle than stock.


I was just wondering if they may have played around with valve timing too much in relation to injector pulse - apparently not which is a good thing. The cam re-grind changes the timing of the valves opening, their duration of being open can be changed and I believe the depth that they're opened to can be changed as well. By playing around with different durations and times of opening/closing you can set up an engine mechanically for torque, power, high revs etc. Hence why a "stage 3" cam or something of the like will be very lumpy at idle up to a certain rev range where it will then pur like a kitten - this is where the cam has the engine at its most efficient/powerful depending on the setup...

I'm not totally sure I buy your fuel map theory. I think it's the cams changing the amount of vacuum in the cylinder along with the different dynamic compression of the Frankenmotor. I have been considering a different FPR or injectors, though. If they fix it, then I guess your theory is better than mine.


What I'm getting at is that the 2.5 litre block is a larger capacity to a 2.2 litre block - my theory goes on that the ECU can't adjust the injector pulse at idle enough or the built in map at idle speeds doesn't have enough in it to compensate for the extra space needed to create an explosion enough to idle properly. Or the injectors could be dirty allowing for a poor idle...

"ODB" stands for Ol' Dirty Bastard, a rapper in the '90s. "OBD" stands for On Board Diagnostics. It's an industry standard for ECUs. The switch from OBDI to OBDII happened around 1995 or so in the US. I don't know how it works everywhere else, though.


That makes sense, thanks! I think we had the crossover here at the same time too - that would be between the Gen1 and Gen2 lib/legacy right?

My speedo is off because of the transmission swap, but next time I drive it, I'll see if I can come up with the RPMs at 60. It's hot here, so recently I've been driving my car that has AC.


Depending on the final ratio, when you had the box open you could have matched a speedo gear in the gearbox to your given application. If you run the same tyre diametre as what that box ran originally I think you'll find that your speedo *should* correct itself - but this will change your gear ratios in relation to speed and acceleration...

Thanks for your reply!

Cheers

Bennie

Edited by el_freddo, 06 July 2011 - 03:55 PM.
Dodgy quotation coding...


#96 renob123

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 03:16 PM

I'm looking forward to it!



I was just wondering if they may have played around with valve timing too much in relation to injector pulse - apparently not which is a good thing. The cam re-grind changes the timing of the valves opening, their duration of being open can be changed and I believe the depth that they're opened to can be changed as well. By playing around with different durations and times of opening/closing you can set up an engine mechanically for torque, power, high revs etc. Hence why a "stage 3" cam or something of the like will be very lumpy at idle up to a certain rev range where it will then pur like a kitten - this is where the cam has the engine at its most efficient/powerful depending on the setup...



What I'm getting at is that the 2.5 litre block is a larger capacity to a 2.2 litre block - my theory goes on that the ECU can't adjust the injector pulse at idle enough or the built in map at idle speeds doesn't have enough in it to compensate for the extra space needed to create an explosion enough to idle properly. Or the injectors could be dirty allowing for a poor idle...



That makes sense, thanks! I think we had the crossover here at the same time too - that would be between the Gen1 and Gen2 lib/legacy right?



Depending on the final ratio, when you had the box open you could have matched a speedo gear in the gearbox to your given application. If you run the same tyre diametre as what that box ran originally I think you'll find that your speedo *should* correct itself - but this will change your gear ratios in relation to speed and acceleration...

Thanks for your reply!

Cheers

Bennie


Ahh, ok. You're talking about the 14% increase in displacement. I'd assume the ECU can vary the fuel at idle at least enough to account for changes in temperature through the year. I suppose if it's dumping more fuel in the winter due to more oxygen in the air, then it had to deal with putting in 14% more fuel for the extra displacement, there could very well be an issue. Assuming Delta changed just the duration, then I suppose even more fuel would be needed. But like I said, I don't really know what exactly they change. I doubt I ever will care as long as they work:)

I could have changed the speedo gears when the transmission was out, but I don't think I had one lying around that was the right ratio. Keep in mind the STI 5-speed replaced an EA82 5-speed in my Brat. I'm ok with just knowing that if it looks like I'm doing the speed limit, I'm actually under. It's a good margin of error. I'm considering a 5-lug swap to run Liberty/Impreza stuff, at which point I'll consider a new tire diameter. That's actually a good point. I may as well get a size that fits my speedometer if I'm getting new stuff anyway.

If your Liberties transitioned exactly when our Legacies did, then the 1995 Gen 1 Liberty would be OBDII, I believe. SVXs changed for their 1996 year. I'm not positive at all about any other models.

Jacob

#97 el_freddo

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 03:59 PM

I doubt I ever will care as long as they work:)


Love your attitude!

I'm considering a 5-lug swap to run Liberty/Impreza stuff, at which point I'll consider a new tire diameter..... I may as well get a size that fits my speedometer if I'm getting new stuff anyway.


Sounds like a good way to be headed, if not for the tyres certainly for the choice in bigger brakes you'll have open in your options!

If your Liberties transitioned exactly when our Legacies did, then the 1995 Gen 1 Liberty would be OBDII, I believe. SVXs changed for their 1996 year. I'm not positive at all about any other models.


Yeah I'm pretty sure that the SVX didn't last long around here - maybe 3 or 4 years if lucky! I'll keep an eye out for the OBDII - any easy way to work out if it is OBDI or OBDII?

Cheers mate!

Bennie

#98 eulogious

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 02:21 AM

"ODB" stands for Ol' Dirty Bastard, a rapper in the '90s. "OBD" stands for On Board Diagnostics.


:lol: That's great! Thanks for the correction :) Just had to say something because it made me laugh when I read that.

#99 brumby420

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 11:56 PM

From what everyones been saying this motor must really smoke the tires in a light vehicle. Im getting some money fairly soon here and am putting into consideration swapping an ej into my buggy. it currently has an ea81 with a 4 speed and i know one thing is for certain it would need at the very least a 5 speed dual range though it might be wiser to just go to a new generation transmission. On thing that differs though is with this swap i would be mainly using it for offroad so i would likely be running 31 inch tires so i think it wouldnt have a much of an issue burning up tires. i dont suppose id do a frankenmotor swap unless i could find one at the junkyard but i know that one of those in my 1,000 lbs buggy would be absolutely neck breaking speed. For now though id like to see about putting an ej in the buggy.

#100 Uberoo

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 07:23 PM

with a stock EJ22 you will have more than enough power even at idle that you shouldn't bog out even in the mud.A ej22 was designed to motivate a much larger and heavier car than the GL's before.On my EJ swapped 87 GL it made FWD pretty much useless until 4th gear.Like I said I could be driving at 25 mph in 3rd gear (like 2000 rpm) and punch the gas and incinerate the front tires.
your buggy is so light that even on pavement in 4wd it might not hook up until 15 mph with a EJ22 if you launch hard...

in the mud it should have enough power to keep your tires spinning even in that wet cement you call mud.

the difference between a stock tired EA81 with a crapatchi and EJ22 is amazing.Pretty much twice as much power at any RPM as your EA81.




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