OK lissenup, I am ready to pronounce an assessment on the SOA

[mtsmiths]

"Cooling System Conditioner"

 

Testing procedure:

 

Shake thourtoughly, per instructions.

 

Open can, remove seal (which was leaking, BTW?).

 

Decant into clear glass jar.

 

Allow to sit one hour.

 

Observe closely.

 

Characteristics after one hour: a red clear liquid on top of a rich depisit (approx 50% by volume) of tan to light brown sediment interspaced with black flecks. Smells just like paint thinner (turps, not mineral spirits).

 

Judgement: This is a solution of finely ground oatmeal suspended in turpentine, and augumented with ATF (remember the 'lubricant' they promised). That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

 

This is simply STOP LEAK of some sort, pure and simple; and this is SOA's 'fix' for thousands of leaking head gaskets on low mileage new cars?

 

Subaru should be ashamed, and we should be offended that they think we are SO gullible.

 

Wait, most of America is, isn't it?

[svxpert]

well, that was a funny assesment. now for the facts. Most all car manufactures put this conditioner into there vehicles from the factory. They have learned from experience that aluminum heads and aluminum blocks don't really seal up tight with the headgaskets we have today because of the porous metal. So this conditioner fills the gaps that tend to leak a small amount of coolant on the OUTSIDE of the engine. This conditioner works great, just as it is suppose to. And you are exactly right, this is just a stopleak, becasue it stops leaks like all other manufactures use. Now you can fault subaru for not using this from the getgo, but you have to understand, they are'nt as wealthy as the big 3 auto makers and have to learn from there mistakes a little harder. Subaru isn't ashamed, there a responsible company. And i have to admit, i am gullible because Subaru cars are the only cars i'll drive!

[99obw]

Originally posted by svxpert

Now you can fault subaru for not using this from the getgo, but you have to understand, they are'nt as wealthy as the big 3 auto makers and have to learn from there mistakes a little harder. Subaru isn't ashamed, there a responsible company.

 

Try telling that to someone who has suffered a head gasket failure only to have SOA play dumb and act like there is not a problem. You are probably right, I doubt they are ashamed. They are laughing all the way to the bank with this "solution". It will plug the leaks long enough to get the cars out of the warranty period and minimize the number of head gaskets they have to pay to have replaced.

[gravelRX]

As someone that got popped for $1300.00 because I didn't have the time to do the HG on my 98 RS at 93K,

I'd say SOA as a new car company best start paying attention.

 

First time buyers are a good thing, repeat buyers are better.

 

Regards,

 

Jay

[1 Lucky Texan]

Don't know about car companies, but a GENERAL rule of thumb in business is ; it costs 8 times more to replace a customer than to keep one.

[CROSSTBOLT]

Yeah, 1LuckyTexan is right! Also: a satisfied customer tells 10 people; a DISSATISFIED customer tells (yells) 20!

 

Karl

[northguy]

So, do you suppose it's instant oatmeal, or old fashioned oatmeal? I prefer the more organic myself.

[pulloff]

I thought they were the automotive division of Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. not a huge automotive giant but a reputable company with an aerospace division. To me this is like a band aid on a bullet wound. I hope they have a little better R&D on the aerospace end of the company!

 

On a side note: I hope they are Steel-cut Oats - chewier than rolled oats, preferred for hot cereals, lots of protein, fiber, and they are cholesterol lowering. All the things I look for in a stop leak, it will keep my car strong, regular, and healthy, it’s like a dream come true, Thanks Subaru!

 

All that said, I’ll probably try the stuff in a few months after some people come on here with reviews of the stuff.

[99obw]

Jake,

 

AFAIK the official Subaru statement only applied to '99-'02 Phase II engines. If I had one of those engines I would think long and hard before putting this stuff in, especially if near the 100k cutuff for the extended warranty. Your '03 should have the improved head gaskets, so I wouldn't add this stuff unless you develop a leak and the dealer recommends it.

 

Just my $0.02.

[K9Leader]

This is a reprise and update of my posting on another thread soon after my 2000 OBW with 44K miles had the HG leak dealt with via the conditioner. Mine was done just a few days before word of this as an official SOA procedure was out.

 

If this really does fix the problem and does no damage to other components, then I have no problem:

 

--Offering to extend the warranty to 8 years/100K miles does show good faith on Subaru's part and indicates a high level of confidence that it will work. In my case, that gives me another 4 years/55K miles.

 

--Every $600-800 head gasket repair under warranty will show itself in the higher sticker price of the next Subaru I buy. I'm not out to screw Subaru just because it's a big, bad corporation. Besides, through my various mutual funds, I probably have some sort of ownership shares in Fuji/Subaru and/or GM (which owns, what?, 40% of Subaru).

 

--The head gasket replacement is a major job, and who knows what else could be screwed up, continuing the problem or creating new ones. Yes, I know all mechanics should be competent and do the job perfectly every time. But this is the real world. Just as major surgery is the last resort to other less invasive treatments . . .

 

--I had the car back in a day instead of in three or four or however long it would have taken to get the parts in and do the job.

 

My initial reservations were that, when it was explained to me, the service manager didn't tell me that this was an official Subaru thing and that I would get a letter officially extending the warranty. It sounded like it was a deal that he and the district rep were offering just to me and in just this one instance. Even though I got it in writing on the receipt, I was a little concerned that if there were a problem down the road no other Subaru dealership would honor it or, even, that this dealership would renege on the basis of "it's not in our records" and/or "he didn't have the authority" and/or "he hasn't worked here in X years and we don't honor anything he promised anymore."

 

If it is an official Subaru of America policy/program, I am confident that is unlikely to happen. I am willing to give it a try.

 

It has been several weeks now, and things seem okay -- no odor, no smoking, no visible leaking. Yes, I know, if something bad is going to result from this, it will be down the road a ways.

 

Back when I took it in to the dealer and the initial take was that they would replace the gaskets, I posted my concerns on another site (as well as on this one) and an SOA customer service supervisor who frequents that other board responded. She e-mailed me with a case number and the name and number of one of her reps who would work with me. The rep called me and the dealership service manager, and kept in touch during the entire process. In addition to explaining the coolant conditioner fix and the extended warranty, after it was done, she offered that SOA would pay for my next major servicing. So, when I have the 60K servicing done, SOA will reimburse me.

 

At this point, I am satisfied. Subaru acted in good faith. However, I do understand everyone's concerns, but having been through it, my concerns are alleviated. And, I am usually one who sees the glass as half empty. Well, actually, I don't see it as half-full nor do I see it as half-empty; I just see a dirty glass one of my kids left lying around that I now have to clean up.

 

--K9Leader

[meep]

'Tis pssible this could work well. IF catastrophic gasket failure occurs slowly over time due to erosion, AND the conditioner prevents the erosion inherent to the porous metal, then it WOULD work.

 

Mike

[pulloff]

99obw,

 

I probably won't put anything in my 03 until Subaru recommends it (which the way things seem to be going at SOA maybe 6 months or so and they will be pushing it for everything just as a precaution). I would consider putting it in my 99 though. It’s got new gaskets, but it still has a ton of miles. It’s a phase 1 and suffered from internal leakage so it is a different issue altogether but if it doesn’t hurt anything and provides a little extra protection then it may be worth a shot. I won’t be pouring anything in either one very soon, I don’t have any desire to be SOA’s guinea pig with my motor, maybe in six month or a year after people have used it but not yet.

 

Enjoy the muddy roads on your side of the gorge this weekend, it looks like it's going to be a real slop fest around here!

[99obw]

Jake,

 

I wouldn't put it in the '99. I won't be putting it in our '99 that has had the gaskets replaced. The typical failure mode of the Phase I and the Phase II is completely different. In the Phase I, high-pressure combustion gasses push their way into the cooling jacket, so any stop leak wouldn't be able to plug the leak, it would be pushed out of the way. In the Phase II pressurized coolant pushes it's way through the head gasket and out of the engine, so stop leak would be pushed into the leaking gasket, presumably plugging the leak.

 

The problem IMHO is the detrimental effects of this stuff won't be seen for years, when it may cause plugged radiators and heater cores.

 

The dirt road I live on is still frozen, but not for long. Weather like this is nice but it makes it so much harder when the next snow storm hits.

[4FOR4]

Originally posted by K9Leader

[, through my various mutual funds, I probably have some sort of ownership shares in Fuji/Subaru and/or GM (which owns, what?, 40% of Subaru).

 

Now there's something I didn't know. GM is part owner of Subaru.

That removes 40% of the guilt I've always had about not buying American, but then again, how many cars are all USA?

[K9Leader]

Originally posted by 4FOR4

Now there's something I didn't know. GM is part owner of Subaru.

That removes 40% of the guilt I've always had about not buying American, but then again, how many cars are all USA? [/b]

 

Yes, GM owns all or part of Subaru, Suzuki, Isuzu, Fiat, Opel, Saab, and several other "foreign" makes. Ford owns Mazda, Jaguar, and others. Chrysler is owned by Daimler-Chrysler, which means it is owned by Mercedes. The whole domestic vs. foreign thing is gone, is never coming back, and we need to stop thinking in the limiting "foreign vs. domestic" terms.

 

My 2000 OBW was built in Lafayette, Indiana, by people named, Becky, Mark, and Jose. It was sold to its first owner by a car dealer in West Chester, Pennsylvania, by a salesman named Howard assisted by Lissa from finance, and I have it serviced in Delaware by guys named Ed, Tim, and Anthony. Same for my wife's Toyota Sienna (substitute Georgetown, Kentucky, for Lafayette, Indiana).

 

And if these vehicles were not satisfactory to me, I have no problem buying something made elsewhere -- Mexico, Japan, Korea, England, Germany, wherever. That's economics and the whole "foreign vs. domestic" argument ignores the realities of economics.

 

--K9Leader

[calebz]

GM owns 20% of FHI, the parent company of subaru.

 

Foreign Vs domestic has been dead for a long time. Chrysler's 'american' products are made in canada, the Saab 9-7x is made in Ohio and not available to any other market except North america( not even in sweden, go figure).. and so on and so forth..

[Scoobaroo]

Hmmm, let's see. A $10 can of sealer goop vs. Subaroo paying $800 per car to actually replace the gaskets.

 

I can't imagine how they arrived at their decision to add goop to the cooling systems.

[duane b]

Originally posted by calebz

GM owns 20% of FHI, the parent company of subaru.

 

Foreign Vs domestic has been dead for a long time. Chrysler's 'american' products are made in canada, the Saab 9-7x is made in Ohio and not available to any other market except North america( not even in sweden, go figure).. and so on and so forth..

 

Let's not forget that GMC products are built in Mexico. Texico has huge refineries there also. So tell that to the next redneck you see at the gas station filling up ($$$) his pickup and accusing you of not buying "American!"

 

Does anybody think this coolant additive would work in a 96 Lecagy 2.2L? I've noticed a tiny little ,bit of oil in the coolant but no other signs of a full blown headgasket.

[myles]

Originally posted by duane b

Let's not forget that GMC products are built in Mexico. Texico has huge refineries there also. So tell that to the next redneck you see at the gas station filling up ($$$) his pickup and accusing you of not buying "American!"

 

Does anybody think this coolant additive would work in a 96 Lecagy 2.2L? I've noticed a tiny little ,bit of oil in the coolant but no other signs of a full blown headgasket.

 

I think this stuff is a fix for _external_ leaks. Sounds like you've an internal leak.

[wrxsubaru]

Originally posted by duane b

Let's not forget that GMC products are built in Mexico. Texico has huge refineries there also. So tell that to the next redneck you see at the gas station filling up ($$$) his pickup and accusing you of not buying "American!"

 

 

Mexico is part of America, just not the US.:-p

[North Ursalia]

Originally posted by Scoobaroo

Hmmm, let's see. A $10 can of sealer goop vs. Subaroo paying $800 per car to actually replace the gaskets.

 

$1.40 actually .

[duane b]

Originally posted by myles

I think this stuff is a fix for _external_ leaks. Sounds like you've an internal leak.

 

So technically what's the difference. If the idea of the additive is to fill the porousness of the aluminum block and head material and stop-leak crappy gasket material, why would it make a difference whether it's internal or external?

 

OFFSUBJECT: WRXSUBARU:

Mexico is part of America, just not the US. [/b]

You sound like a canadian:D I notice you guys don't like to share the "American" label when there is a target on your back.

 

Tell the people that get paid $3 /day to install brakes, seatbelts and airbags on those big GMC products then go home to a village that has it's groundwater polluted legally by a Texico refinery up river, that they live in America.

[myles]

Originally posted by duane b

So technically what's the difference. If the idea of the additive is to fill the porousness of the aluminum block and head material and stop-leak crappy gasket material, why would it make a difference whether it's internal or external? <snip>

 

In the case of the external leak (water jacket to outside), the "goo" has to stand up against the pressure differential between the cooling system and the atmosphere. For an internal leak (cylinder to water jacket and vice versa), the "goo" has to withstand the pressure differential between the cylinder and the cooling system.

[99obw]

Originally posted by duane b

So technically what's the difference. If the idea of the additive is to fill the porousness of the aluminum block and head material and stop-leak crappy gasket material, why would it make a difference whether it's internal or external?

I think I explained that pretty well above.

 

Originally posted by 99obw

The typical failure mode of the Phase I and the Phase II is completely different. In the Phase I, high-pressure combustion gasses push their way into the cooling jacket, so any stop leak wouldn't be able to plug the leak, it would be pushed out of the way. In the Phase II pressurized coolant pushes it's way through the head gasket and out of the engine, so stop leak would be pushed into the leaking gasket, presumably plugging the leak.

As myles points out the pressure differentials involved are on different orders of magnitude as well.

 

I could be wrong, but I think SOA would have recommended this for the Phase I some time ago if it did any good.

[cookie]

people have tried to fix intra combustion leaks with stop leak for years and it just desn't work.

Heck first you have around 9 to one combustion and then you have an explosion to seal. This is not even to mention combusion temperatures.

The old get by with stop leak stuff sometimes required putting the radiator cap on the first notch to complely remove pressure to work, say in a good hole in the radiator.

The other big stop leak failure is to try to fix a leaking water pump seal.