Idle Problem After Timing Belt Change

[magnus freeman]

EJ22, 1991 Legacy, automatic, no turbo.

 

Changed out timing belt, water pump, main pulley, woodruff key.

 

Now when we start it, the engine idles rough for a few seconds, then revs cleanly to about 2000 RPM, then returns to crappy idle and/or dies. Throttling causes bogging and/or the engine to die.

 

Nothing else changed that we know of . . . Did we put something back together wrong? Please help.

 

:confused:

Edited December 12, 2010 by magnus freeman

[bheinen74]

you used the wrong marks for the timing belt install.

[magnus freeman]

you used the wrong marks for the timing belt install.

 

Nope, we used the right tick marks, I checked multiple sources before we pulled the pin.

 

We did have the timing belt slip when we were turning it by hand to make sure there was no interference...we then took the belt back off, turned all three sprockets clockwise back to the marks and reinstalled the belt.

 

Could one of the pulleys have been turned one too many or one too few times, or can this engine even be 180 out?

[bheinen74]

so you used the front lines on the cam pulleys, and lined the crank up to the notch. Do not use the cam arrows.?

[magnus freeman]

so you used the front lines on the cam pulleys, and lined the crank up to the notch. Do not use the cam arrows.?

 

Correct, did not use the arrow on the main cam, used the tick mark on the back flange and lined it up with the tick mark above. The key was at the bottom. In fact, the arrow was worn off the main cam because the bolt came loose and the back of the pulley ground off the front of the cam.

 

Also used the front lines on the cam sprockets.

Edited December 12, 2010 by magnus freeman

[nipper]

Double tripple quadrupple check. Many people swear oin a stack of bibles that they got the timing right, just to be off a tooth.

 

If the car ran fine before you touched it, and doesnt after you did touch it, the problem is what you touched.

[bheinen74]

you used the tick mark at the back of the gear notch, not the front right?

[johnceggleston]

some folks have had the belt slip a tooth when installing it. i would double check that.

 

also, if the crank pulley came loose, did it mess up the crank key way? or the crank sprocket key way? if there was any slop between the crank sprocket and the crank that could cause this problem.

 

you say you used a new key, was the key way in the 6 oclock position when you aligned the timing marks?

 

it is unusual for the loose bolt / pulley not to cause damage to the crank end / key way. it can be over come and corrected, but if the crank is ''one tooth'' off it will run crappy.

[magnus freeman]

some folks have had the belt slip a tooth when installing it. i would double check that.

 

also, if the crank pulley came loose, did it mess up the crank key way? or the crank sprocket key way? if there was any slop between the crank sprocket and the crank that could cause this problem.

 

you say you used a new key, was the key way in the 6 oclock position when you aligned the timing marks?

 

it is unusual for the loose bolt / pulley not to cause damage to the crank end / key way. it can be over come and corrected, but if the crank is ''one tooth'' off it will run crappy.

 

The belt had slipped initially, as I said, when we were turning the crank/cams by hand (probably because we hadn't pulled the pin yet), so we took off the belt, turned all three sprockets around clockwise by hand until they lined back up, then put the belt back on. I'm wondering if this step caused a 33.3, 90, or 180 out condition, if that's even possible. That's the only thing I can think of.

 

The first time we turned it over, before we put the covers and other belts back on, it started for a second. We stopped it and noticed that the belt seemed to have jumped a full tooth on *all three* sprockets, which shouldn't matter one iota, so we left it because the tick marks were all still aligned with each other.

 

The crank pulley coming loose only messed up the keyway on the pulley itself, which we replaced. The keyway on the crank and on the sprocket were still perfectly good, no slop, and the new key we bought was directly from a Subaru parts counter.

 

Yes, the new key was dead on at 6 o'clock when we put the timing belt on because that's where it lands when the tick marks are aligned correctly.

[johnceggleston]

it sounds like you got the timing right. there is a link in my signature below to good pics if you have any doubts.

 

my next guess would be a vacuum hose, maybe.

 

wires might cause the crappy idle but not the rev-ing to 2k and back.

 

double check all connections and hoses.

 

did you get the fuel lines back on right? i have never heard of it happening in a subaru, but in small engines they will some times rev up just before they die from lack of fuel.

 

is the plastic air box / filter and intake on correctly?

[davebugs]

I have had similar problems and it's turned out to be rubber hose plumbing.

 

MAF plugged in?

 

Usually I forget that stiff 1" tube about a foot long on the airbox that's kinda hidden on the pass side. But that causes it to die IIR and not rev before it does.

 

I'd triple check all rubber lines. Vacuum, breather, even make sure the hose clamp holding the airbox to the throttle body has no leaks.

[magnus freeman]

it sounds like you got the timing right. there is a link in my signature below to good pics if you have any doubts.

 

my next guess would be a vacuum hose, maybe.

 

wires might cause the crappy idle but not the rev-ing to 2k and back.

 

double check all connections and hoses.

 

did you get the fuel lines back on right? i have never heard of it happening in a subaru, but in small engines they will some times rev up just before they die from lack of fuel.

 

is the plastic air box / filter and intake on correctly?

 

We didn't mess with any fuel lines whatsoever. I thought maybe a fuel filter clogged, but that would have manifested before the timing belt replacement.

 

VACUUM...actually you might be on to something there; the way the engine runs, a vacuum leak or lock sounds like it could be a good possibility...it's that type of idle. However, I don't see any vacuum lines disconnected,

 

. . . but . . .

 

. . . does the transmission fluid use vacuum to pump fluid up into the tranny fluid filter and radiator? Because if it does, we may have caused a vacuum lock when we started it briefly with that disconnected, and it spewed tranny fluid out the lines. I didn't know what those lines were for until that happened.

[johnceggleston]

 

VACUUM...actually you might be on to something there; the way the engine runs, a vacuum leak or lock sounds like it could be a good possibility...it's that type of idle. However, I don't see any vacuum lines disconnected,

 

. . . but . . .

 

. . . does the transmission fluid use vacuum to pump fluid up into the tranny fluid filter and radiator? Because if it does, we may have caused a vacuum lock when we started it briefly with that disconnected, and it spewed tranny fluid out the lines. I didn't know what those lines were for until that happened.

 

no vacuum associated with the trans cooler lines.

 

there is a large vac hose under the plastic air intake that connects it to the pcv (on 2.5L cars any way). but usually the engine dies if that is open. it is hard to see. it is about the diameter of your thumb or larger. the pcv is on the passenger side towards the rear.

[magnus freeman]

So I looked into the airbox, handled every vacuum line I could identify, wiggled all the electrical connectors, started it up, and it ran a little rough at first, then ran fairly cleanly. Drove it around the block, and it runs 90% smooth. Hmm.

:-\

[bheinen74]

sure sounds like the non-subaru person changine a tbelt and having the timing off on it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will almost put LOTS of money on that.

 

 

I have come across at least 5 ej22 in the junkyards with brand new t belt, brand new idlers, brand new tensioners, and the timing was not set right.

[magnus freeman]

sure sounds like the non-subaru person changine a tbelt and having the timing off on it.

 

I will almost put LOTS of money on that.

 

 

How much it LOTS? I could use some winnings.

 

New to the board doesn't mean non-subaru person.

 

I'd like to think I'm not a complete noob...this is my second Sube, I've rebuilt a dozen Japanese engines, and built 3 rally cars.

[Ionlyhave3suubs]

Sounds like you are sure it is not the timing belt. Don't know what technique you used to check for vac leak. I like the spray around all hoses with carb cleaner technique. A change in idle while spraying an area indicates a leak. If you haven't tried it yet, try it. Keep in mind carb cleaner can damage paint though.

[ShakotanBoogie]

Had you driven the car before replacing the timing belt as to know what to compare to? To what extent did you take apart the front of the engine, or what condition was it in when you acquired it?

[magnus freeman]

Some more info...

 

Only seems to idle rough when it's cold, and putting the transmission in Drive, stalls. But once it warms up a bit, it idles and drives pretty good.

 

Before the timing belt change, it did not do this. It would drive cold.

[jdemaris]

EJ22, 1991 Legacy, automatic, no turbo.

 

Changed out timing belt, water pump, main pulley, woodruff key.

 

Now when we start it, the engine idles rough for a few seconds, then revs cleanly to about 2000 RPM, then returns to crappy idle and/or dies. Throttling causes bogging and/or the engine to die.

 

Nothing else changed that we know of . . . Did we put something back together wrong? Please help.

 

:confused:

 

I know you checked, checked, and checked. I'll offer this comment anyway. I put a new belt and water-pump in a 2.5, 2002 Impreza recently. I also checked, double-checked, and triple checked. Got it all together, started fine, ran good, but idled kind of odd and a little rough. Sounded kind of like a 60s car I'd stuck a hot cam into. Down the road, it ran fine. After awhile, it started turning on the "check engine" light. Long story short, the cam on the passenger side was off one tooth. Other cam was fine.

[bheinen74]

I do BET itis off on timing. seen it, others have seen it, i buy cars that way when others have had it triple checked etc.

 

the last one i had shipped down had sworn it was not that.. his shop sworn it was not that either.-went thru new ecus, coils, mafs, plugs, ignitors, injectors, i got all the spare with the csr.

 

he gave up on it and i got it for 530 bucks.

Sure enuf.

set the tining, drove it for a a few years sold it for my 1850. sold or used all the other parts on others.

Edited December 14, 2010 by bheinen74

[zedhead]

Double check the belt by COUNTING the teeth between the pulleys.

 

Ya never know, it could be marked wrong.

[JAPferd]

Howdy, I'm in the same boat on this subject as of today.  I put the new timing belt on with 44 teeth left side, 40.5 right side, and center cam at 12 o'clock mark (stamped arrow at 90 degrees).  The new belt had the exact marks that lined up with the left and right pulley indents on the pulleys.  That as it may, something is off.  High start, then tries to lower to idle but motors up and down between 500 and 2000 rpm.  

 

I'm wondering if I should turn the center cam one notch, keeping the outer pulleys the same, then test again.  Sound feasible to anyone?  

 

PS. No check light came on during initial test.

 

1991 Subaru Legacy 2.2L non-turbo.  

[Olnick]

Welcome to the USMB, JAPferd.  From your description it sounds like you got the timing belt on correctly.  (By "center cam" I assume you mean the cam sprocket.)  Did you compress the tensioner, pin it, position it properly--then release it after the belt is in place?  Does the engine sound smooth--despite the fluctuating idle?

 

Timing belt shouldn't cause the idle problem.  That could be the IACV or more likely the rubber hoses under the air intake tube--were they taken off and not reconnected maybe?

 

Good luck.

[Fairtax4me]

Arrows can't be used for timing. Have to use the hash marks or the cams will move all over.

 

Crank keyway should be straight down. The mark to use is on the rear of the sprocket on the reluctor tooth.

 

Cams have a small notch mark on the front on the outer ring.

Drivers side cam notch should be half tooth to the outside (towards the drivers side) of the mark in the timing cover.