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Timing belt idler bearing diagnosis EJ22


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57 replies to this topic

#1 Redhat

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 09:27 AM

Good morning,
I have the idler sprockets (3) off and am spinning them to check bearing condition. They run relatively smooth but are not exactly quiet. Kind of varying noises if you know what I mean. If I do need to replace, is the usual to just replace the bearing or the whole thing. Is it a bearing press job..
Thanks for any input. It's a 96 legacy 2.2

#2 ocei77

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 09:49 AM

replace entire unit.
many vendors and oem for source.

O.

#3 Redhat

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 10:08 AM

The CarQuest guys are telling me they have a whole kit including timing belt and three pulleys for about $200. It's made by Gates. I wonder if anyone has a better idea. I'm not even sure they're bad, they just sound a little click click when spun. But there's no 'grinding' or rough spots.
Just looking for experience on how to proceed.

#4 davebugs

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 11:01 AM

Most of us but kits form theimportexperts.com

You can search for them on Ebay as well.

Good value, no problems and I've installed many - probably more than 50.

I hear their WP's are good too but I get my WP local and usually my timing belt but they have several timing belt choices. Now their accessory belts are real cheap (I got Continentals last time) like half what other name brand belts are - like 5 bucks each or something.

OEM idlers are expensive.

NAPA & chain places don't seem to be a good value (some parts are CRAP often. I tried 2 local independent small chains, Advance, Autozone, before folks here recommended theimportexperts.

#5 davebugs

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 11:02 AM

Noise, feel and "tightness". If they spin easily it's because there ain't much grease left!

You gonna gamble on another 100k on them?

#6 grossgary

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 12:16 PM

There's no way to know how long they will last so most of us just replace them. Do you know what a brand new one feels like? They are tight and barely spin at all because there's actually grease in them. Yours probably whiirrrr right around no problem? The ebay kits are the way to go - much cheaper than in the stores usually. They will likely last quite some time - 3 years and 60k or 105k more, no way to tell.

96 legacy is non-interference (97 is interference) so if the belt breaks there's no engine damage at least on your car, so mostly this just depends on how much you value reliability/your time.

If you really want to save a buck and max out your pulleys you can plan on pulling the belt every 30k, once a summer, etc. and inspect them. Or if you don't care and reliability isn't that important to you, just run them. Everyone is different when it comes to costs, reliability, risk, etc.

#7 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 12:35 PM

$108 shipped for the whole kit with water pump on ebay. I have used dozens of them. Look up the seller "mizumoauto".

No reason to reuse the ilders. I wouldn't consider it.

GD

#8 Redhat

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:23 PM

Thanks everyone. I see Import Experts also sells on Ebay at way less than their website price. I just gave them the part number and confirmed the kit was the same gates kit from their website. $72 vs $227. At that price, I'm replacing everything. :clap:

#9 NorthWet

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:08 PM

$108 shipped for the whole kit with water pump on ebay. I have used dozens of them. Look up the seller "mizumoauto".

No reason to reuse the ilders. I wouldn't consider it.

GD

I have used both ebay vendors cited.

A big +1 for mizumauto for their customer service. I ordered the wrong kit from them (TOTALLY my fault... wrong year :o), and they bent over backwards to help me. This included trying to assemble a kit that they don't normally carry.

#10 grossgary

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 03:27 PM

being a 96 legacy i'd double check the tensioner set up to be sure, i think you have the old style - but in 97...and possibly 96 i've seen some confusion. a visual check is all you need as the ebay auctions all have pictures for the most part.

you can replace the bearings with a press. and you can regrease the existing bearings with a grease gun and carefully injecting new grease under the bearing seal - but that's tedious and nearly impossible to get the seal reinstalled perfectly. i do that on ER27 engines in which case the timing pulley kits are $399 on ebay :rolleyes:

#11 The Dude

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 04:43 PM

Hi Gary. I'm getting ready to do my first timing belt replacement. It will be on my 2006 NA Forester. Will the Ebay kits last 105,000 miles? Because while I can do my own wrenching, I really don't enjoy it as much as I used to. I want to do the job once, and be done with it. I plan on selling this Forester at 200,000 miles.

I like saving money, but can I count on the Ebay belts and bearings going the full 105,000? I'm just asking for your opinion. I realize that even genuine Subaru timing parts occasionally fail before 105,000 miles. Nothing is an absolutely sure thing. Thanks.

#12 Luvn737s

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 06:58 PM

The All-Wheel Drive Auto video on YouTube makes a case for dual bearing ($$) versus single bearing (green band). I was convinced and ended up buying the dealer part. The bearings on the OEM idlers, tensioner and water pump are a little stiff, but the belts gonna spin it alot faster than I will by hand.

#13 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 11:21 PM

I wouldn't bat an eye at the ebay stuff going 105k - they are intended to do so. All the kits I've used (mizumoauto and theimportexperts) include japanese bearing idlers. I have not had a single failure over a single belt change interval (60k or 105k) and have not heard of it on this board either.

As for the dual-row vs. single row idlers - personally I haven't seen a significant difference if they are changed at every belt interval. The reason Subaru went to the dual bearing idlers is because they DO NOT list a change interval for the idlers at all. If you just leave the things in place then eventually one will fail and when it does the single row bearing idler will collapse. Chances are that the doulble row will make a lot of noise but not actually keel over sideways like the single row will.

But the biggest source of failure is the cogged idler. By far that is the most common one to seize up or start squeeling.

I do LOTS of timing belts. Often a couple a week. I can easily do them in less than 3 hours. I have yet to have a problem with the ebay sellers or their products.

As Northwet noted - mizumoauto has been very good. They have the better prices of the two sellers and their customer service is great. They flubbed up and sent me an incorrect idler on one of my kits - they promptly sent me the replacement and I sent them back their (clearly non-Subaru) part. It was simple and easy and I have NO complaints with them or the quality of their components.

GD

#14 davebugs

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 09:32 AM

But the biggest source of failure is the cogged idler. By far that is the most common one to seize up or start squeeling.

GD


Definately.

I often order "custom kits" - like add an extra cogged (I thry and keep one in tstock for the really cheap folks because it does fail first). Often adding an idler or two, or without the old style tensioner bearing, stuff like that.

I've continued to deal with theimportexperts (who by the way have a few different names on Ebay and websites) because I've had 2 minor issues and resolved quickly and well. Learned you gotta check Ebay first sometimes their prices there are better.

As long as price is fair and customer service is good I'll keep using that vendor until given a reason to deal with someone else. But I'd imagine others sell the exact same kit for about the same price.

#15 johnceggleston

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 04:57 PM

it is probably just a typo or over site, but based on the errors in this ebay ad i'm not sure i would buy from mizumoauto.

but who knows.


http://cgi.ebay.com/...sQ5fAccessories

#16 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 11:52 PM

It's a typo. They meant EJ22. Their kits are good. No issues.

GD

#17 Suba9792

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 04:06 AM

My kit came from importexperts, and it came with the WP for $124 + shipping, don't just do the belt and idlers, do the water pump as well, cam seals,crank seal and reseal the oil pump, you don't want to end up going back in there a few weeks or months after to reseal it, it just makes sense to do it while everything up front is open and off. And get all the seals and gaskets from the dealer!!! better quality. If the WP seal looks like paper or card board its crap.

#18 Redhat

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 09:39 AM

My kit came from importexperts, and it came with the WP for $124 + shipping, don't just do the belt and idlers, do the water pump as well, cam seals,crank seal and reseal the oil pump, you don't want to end up going back in there a few weeks or months after to reseal it, it just makes sense to do it while everything up front is open and off. And get all the seals and gaskets from the dealer!!! better quality. If the WP seal looks like paper or card board its crap.

This is exactly right. I learned the hard way. Should have joined this forum when I first did the T belt. One other thing I learned is the stamped arrow on the crank gear is NOT the timing mark! It's on the plate behind the gear as I'm sure everyone here knows. I just wish it was a little easier getting the cam pulley bolts off. Since an impact wrench doesn't fit, it's all breaker bar and somehow holding the pulleys from turning. RPITA

#19 logic23

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:32 AM

I use the mizumo auto. CAUTION!!! the tentioner ( early cam style) they sell has a Japanese pulley and a chinese cast cam assembly. The casting is fine but the bolt and sleeve are too short and the bolt has teeth on it. IF TIGHTENED IT WILL LOCK YOUR TENTIONER IN THE LOOSE POSITION.:eek: After torquing the bolt the tentioner should move freely. I've alerted her (mizumo) to the issue and they say they are "looking into it". They are really nice. They've sold me parts of kits too (just tentioners) Oh yeah make sure to ask for timing belt WITH marks. I got a couple without. Also get the kit with the GMB or Aisian(sp?)<both japanese> pump. Ive never used the other one mentioned I'm sure its the same stuff.

#20 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 02:24 PM

I use the mizumo auto. CAUTION!!! the tentioner ( early cam style) they sell has a Japanese pulley and a chinese cast cam assembly. The casting is fine but the bolt and sleeve are too short and the bolt has teeth on it. IF TIGHTENED IT WILL LOCK YOUR TENTIONER IN THE LOOSE POSITION.:eek: After torquing the bolt the tentioner should move freely. I've alerted her (mizumo) to the issue and they say they are "looking into it".


Yes - you have to reuse the bolt and sleeve from the original pulley. Toss the ones that come with them in the trash. I haven't said anything to them about it because I always just reuse the old one's and it's good to go. Since that's not a wear item it's really not that big of a deal.

They are really nice. They've sold me parts of kits too (just tentioners) Oh yeah make sure to ask for timing belt WITH marks. I got a couple without. Also get the kit with the GMB or Aisian(sp?)<both japanese> pump. Ive never used the other one mentioned I'm sure its the same stuff.


I use the belt's without the marks all the time - it's not an issue for me. I suppose if you are new and paranoid they make you feel better, etc. But frankly they aren't needed for the experienced installer.

I do not like the GMB water pumps. The castings are terrible and the finish machining is crap. The regular pumps they sell (and the Aisin pumps too) are fine. I haven't had an issue with any of thier water pumps.

They always include 4 cam seals even on the DOHC kits :lol:. Whatever - I have a big ziplock bag of extra's now. I have probably bought 2 dozen of their kits or more by now. Best price, good service, excelent products. The bearings in this last set I ordered were all japanese NTN (same maker that builds Subaru axles, etc). I have no issues with them.

GD

#21 Redhat

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 04:32 PM

Just completed and wanted to report. I did my first cam and crank seal replace, tightened the backing plate screws on the oil pump and changed idler pulleys and T belt. ImportExperts sent me what I needed. I noticed the T belt they sent looked of better quality than the last one AutoZone sold me as their OE belt. All went smooth and now I'm back on the road so thanks again for the very useful info. I guess now I'm out of excuses for not shoveling snow off the roof.

#22 davebugs

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 05:14 PM

Great to be done with something. And do it properly.

What brand of belt in the kit?

Did you get and use the Lisle seal puller?

Make sure you got the crank bolt good and tight.

Congratulations on doing it yourself.

#23 Redhat

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 07:38 AM

Hi Dave, I didn't think to check what brand of belt came with the kit. It was thicker.. meaning from flat side to toothed side then the one from AZone and had a red band of material laminated between flat and toothed side. I never ended up finding the puller but with a pair of tin snips and the clip off a 30 ft tape measure ended up making a nifty little spring steel joby which I rotated the hook behind the seal and with a little pulling, they came right out. After I puller the pin on the tensioner and the T belt was tight, I put a 16in breaker bar on the crank bolt and hit it a bunch of times with a rubber mallet. Seemed to get it pretty tight. Do you think it's good enough..?

#24 93Newbaru

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 08:48 AM

I put a 16in breaker bar on the crank bolt and hit it a bunch of times with a rubber mallet. Seemed to get it pretty tight. Do you think it's good enough..?



Rubber mallet, no. We'd have no idea how much force or how many times you hit it or.........//// There is a torque spec for the crank pulley and medium strength loctite like the blue color is recommended. I believe the torque spec is 130 ft lbs. Some people use an impact.

#25 davebugs

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 09:44 AM

After I puller the pin on the tensioner and the T belt was tight, I put a 16in breaker bar on the crank bolt and hit it a bunch of times with a rubber mallet. Seemed to get it pretty tight. Do you think it's good enough..?


Not tight enough for me.

I use an impact while the engine is out and/or a breaker bar and a tool to hold the harmonic balancer that I had made (I used to have a few to sell but think I've misplaced them all - both sizes).

No way I'd run that much with the final tightening being a rubber mallet.

After that harmonic balances comes loose, wobbles, keyway chews up the crank and harmonic balancer it's not fun to fix.




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