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Just a EJ22 thought and request.


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82 replies to this topic

#1 MaddCelt

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 02:26 PM

One of the reoccuring topic hijackers is the opinion the 2.2 any time someone posts question about the 2.5.

For those who's advice for an issue on a 2.5, is swapping to a 2.2, that is not the advice we 2.5ers are asking for. If you cannot provide advice on the issue at hand, please do not hijack the post. Not everyone has the ability/time/money to do a swap.

Just a friendly request, I return you back to your schedualed forum browsing.

#2 ShawnW

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 02:58 AM

I do agree with you.

I do think the 2.2 swap is a good one but not for everyone.

I have purchased 96-99 Outbacks that have had 3 or more sets of head gaskets installed. I speculate that at least half of the HG jobs done are not by the book, properly done, etc.

I plan to sell and stock a conversion engine kit as a fully rebuilt Ej22 with the intake and necessary parts to install it thru my business alongside an EJ25. The 2.5 will be slightly cheaper than the 2.2 kit with intake manifold. Its just that much cheaper to rebuild and warranty an EJ22.

The 2.2 swap has a couple drawbacks.
1. Power.
2. Torque. When passing, uphill, the 2.2 doesn't always have the umph to get you around a car on a 2 lane highway like the 2.5 does.
3. Availability. They are getting pretty scarce and when I do find them in the yard its common to find one with 2-300K miles on the old engine. Great for the previous owner but not confidence building to be taking out a 180K 2.5 quad cam engine and installing a 2.2 with at times double the miles. Its just not THAT great of an engine at that point in its life.

#3 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 11:32 AM

It should be clarified that this post is dealing with the EJ25D only. EJ251/253 is a different world and the 22 swap doesn't typically apply.

I agree to a point. I will tell someone to repair their 2.5 if that's warranted. There was a recent thread from a member with 99k on an Outback and my advice was to replace the head gaskets.

But it's often a big gamble. I have done plenty of HG's on 2.5's and haven't had a single issue with one yet. But depending on mileage and treatment it's OFTEN more economical to put in a used 2.2.

The basic problem we are dealing with here is bottom-end failure due to lack of changing the headgaskets at the first signs of leakage. The 25D also has a propensity for burning large amounts of oil and thus running dry and throwing a rod that way.... when rebuilt and properly maintained they are a great engine....

As for availibility - I can often buy low mileage (150k or less) used EJ22's in my area for under $500. Availibility really depends on where you are located.

ALSO - people don't even talk about JDM EJ20's - those have about 150 HP and can be swapped into the EJ22/EJ25D cars with about the same amount of work and can be had cheap from the importers.

Another point to consider - the EJ22 has inexpensive or no required valve adjustment, timing belt kits are about $100 less..... etc. It's a cheaper engine to run, replace, and maintain. With the price of gas going nuts it's a no brainer which one I would choose. And power loss/mileage can be mitigated to some extent just by dropping a couple tire sizes on the Outback for street duty. I have 2.2'd a Legacy GT and the power loss wasn't a problem at all - in fact it was surprisingly peppy. The problem is that most of these swaps occur on taller geared Outbacks with tall tires. Thus the power loss....

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 28 March 2011 - 11:52 AM.


#4 davebugs

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 11:41 AM

I do a lot of 2.2 swaps because often they end up cheaper than doing the HG's if someone is paying to have the work done. Actually fixing a 2.5 or swapping a 2.2 are probably within a hundred bucks of each other (after reseal. timing components, etc).

The gamble comes down to whether you think the 2.5 has been heated to the point that the rod bearings will fail soon after you spend the time and money on the HG job.

So if no rod knock and not overheated I do HG's on the 2.5.

If rod knock or it's been overheated bad or multiple times I 2.2 them.

If I don't know I figure worst case and 2.2 them.

And you gotta admit the 2.2 swap is very easy - that and cost and reliablilty are why it makes sense.

So we can all advise on the HG job, getting heads surfaced, timing components, oil pump screws and the like. But if there is evidence of it being "cooked" or already having bearing noise they should be aware of the 2.2 option. JY 2.5's are still over 1k and typically have the same HG isues and a 2.2 is about 350 and the prognosis is better on an engine that you don't know.

FYI I fix about half and swap about half based on the above comments.

#5 curtisbad

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 04:46 PM

One of the reoccuring topic hijackers is the opinion the 2.2 any time someone posts question about the 2.5.

For those who's advice for an issue on a 2.5, is swapping to a 2.2, that is not the advice we 2.5ers are asking for. If you cannot provide advice on the issue at hand, please do not hijack the post. Not everyone has the ability/time/money to do a swap.

Just a friendly request, I return you back to your schedualed forum browsing.


AMEN brother!!!!!

#6 Gloyale

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 07:45 PM

JY 2.5's are still over 1k and typically have the same HG isues and a 2.2 is about 350 and the prognosis is better on an engine that you don't know.


Those prices will change, and the engines will soon be getting harder to find.

Good 2.2s are $500-900 round here. Anything less $ is questionable history and milage.

Recently, I've been replacing alot of 2.2 head gaskets as well. They do fail, Just like the all the other subaru engines to some extent. I've personally had HG failure in an EA81, EA82, EA82T, EJ22. and EJ25s.

Also, there is exhaust issues, single vs. dual port, with newer engines being single port, not bolt on to a 2.5 and the old Dual port motors the harnesses don't plug and play, so you have to swap.

That said.....if it makes sense for your circumstances, do the swap. Espescially for a Manual trans, the power loss is much less noticable when you can Rev it out a bit more than the auto TCU will.
IDK, I think repair the 2.5. Doing a bearing replacement if needed. I mean, c'mon......splitting cases isn't THAT hard.

#7 bheinen74

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 09:31 PM

A fact is the ej25 DOHC engine had almost near 100% failure of the headgasket. iteration version one thru how ever many changes they have made. Even the newst design is prone to fail at 100k. Now, the ej22, did not bave a fact issue at all, ever on that.

Take your chance, read up, be saving money for when you have a ej25 DOHC blow.

#8 logic23

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 10:08 PM

I agree.... The 2.5 has such a high failure rate that I don't see it fair/smart to recommend that anyone waste their money or time fixing it. I believe that our time as a group is better spent figuring out and documenting:
A. how to change your 2.5 DOHC subaru to a SOHC subaru.
B. non conventional ways to fix some of these HG issues since Subaru cant seem to.
There are some really smart innovative people here on the board.
I think our mission is to help people enjoy their cars and help people with the most reliable solution to their problem whether its a HG or a warped rotor.

#9 987687

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 10:17 PM

Sure the 2.2 swap is all fine and dandy, and I went that route for price, ease, and the fastest way to make my car run.

But there's no reason to tell people who want to rebuild the ej25 not to. A properly rebuild ej25 is a nice engine.
I want to rebuild my 25D block, give it 2.2 heads and some cams. Rebuilt right it should be a nice reliable engine with a lot more power than the 2.2. No reason to bash that.

#10 bheinen74

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 10:23 PM

people like the ej22 cause it goes 300k and no headgasket expense in average.

People who go with ej25 DOHC do the headgasket on average 2 x at a high cost of 2g average, every 150k.

4g to run a ej25 DOHC to 300k, thats just HG cost
or no cost to run a ej22 to 300k (no HG cost)

My advice based on fact, is if you have a ej25 DOHC motor, you will have failed HG. 100% bet. If anyone argues that, talk to them when they try to hit the 150k mark.

Edited by bheinen74, 28 March 2011 - 10:29 PM.


#11 987687

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 10:26 PM

What I'm saying, is a fully rebuild 2.5, bearings and all will be just as reliable. With all the updated parts it should be fine.

#12 bheinen74

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 10:34 PM

What I'm saying, is a fully rebuild 2.5, bearings and all will be just as reliable. With all the updated parts it should be fine.


new headgaskets on a ej22 will last 300k
new headgaskets on a ej25 will last 150k

NO. reliable from 100k to say 140k yes. after 150 no.

PLEASE look at this log if you want to see some real world facts
http://home.comcast..../guestlog1.html
that log only is the first page....of many.

the best quot on that page is """""I've driven Subarus and Hondas for years. My last Subaru before the Outback was a 94 Loyale Wgn. which was a great car, I learned to put up with the oil leaks which seemed to be never ending. I fixed them myself only to have them reappear. I'm not a novice mechanic, I'm certified to rebuild airplane engines and air frames and have restored antique Cord automobiles. The Loyale engine had design faults but was repairable and dependable. The phase 1 2.5 engine is an abomination. When my head gaskets failed I torn down the engine (to the crank) bearings were thin, pistons scored, wrist pins looked as though someone had been teething on them. I checked the heads, they weren't warped so it was simply head gasket failure because of poor design I suspect. I won't put this engine back in again. I'm in the process on fitting a 2.2 which I just finished going over. Subaru should do the same thing and use the 2.5s to build artificial reefs""""""

enuf but lets discuss to prove more facts- facts are truth check out the sources....one factualy source link is given i can give about 15 more if you want

Edited by bheinen74, 28 March 2011 - 10:55 PM.


#13 subaruplatt

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 11:11 PM

So in spite of all your admonitions this is becoming all about the 2.2.:lol::lol:

#14 bheinen74

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 11:14 PM

http://home.comcast..../guestlog2.html
http://home.comcast..../guestlog3.html
http://home.comcast..../guestlog4.html
no you wanted some facts. Anybobdy with ej25 needs read this info. It is truth. Need a sticky on this for the usmb. Subaru never acknowledged an issue and treated the customers poorly, even those who were long time buyers. Notice the comments, never again, coming from a long time Subaru persons. EJ25 dohc is junk and here is the proof

Edited by bheinen74, 28 March 2011 - 11:21 PM.


#15 94Loyale

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 02:09 AM

I just got done reading this thread, and it does have a lot of valuable knowledge in it. I know a lot of people don't want to hear about the 2.2 swap. But it's the intelligent answer to your problem. In this thread you're getting answers and facts from a bunch of us who work on these cars everyday. These are real world answers on the issue of fixing a 2.5 DOHC, or swapping in a 2.2. Not just someone's "theories" or thoughts about the situation who has most likely had very little actual experience with either motor. The 2.5 was a problem right off the bat. As stated, even with the most updated gaskets, there is still a relatively low lifespan on them. I've done countless DOHC head gaskets. Am I confident in my work? Absolutely. Are most of those gaskets going to fail again? Most likely. There is so much extra cost in these motors upkeep wise in comparison to the 2.2. Seriously, use your head and think about it :rolleyes:
1- 2.2's do not have headgasket problems!
2- Much cheaper to maintain (spark plugs are easy to get to, a novice can handle timing belt & wp, Less seals and areas to leak) The timing sets are cheaper also.
3- The only people I notice that bash the swap are ones that have never done it. Along with that statement, they don't realize that it's actually easier to swap the motor than do hg's on the 2.5.
4- Your intake manifold from your 2.5 will bolt right on your 2.2. There is no wiring issues, you don't have to change your ECU, no bullsh*t. Bolt it on, plug it in, done. Do your research first while looking for your 2.2. If your 2.5 has EGR, get a 2.2 that does. If you don't want switch your y-pipe (which is very cheap if need be) Then don't, get a 2.2 with dual port heads, they are not uncommon or anything.

I really don't care if people do not want to listen about 2.2's. But if you ask the question, your going to get an answer. Whether it's one that you like doesn't concern me. The only possible downside to this is power, which is not a real big loss anyway. Want to worry about replacing your headgaskets again for another $1500 (cause you're going to)? Want to have a motor that's more involved to do normal maintenance on and more expensive to maintain? What about a motor that is very likely to rod knock after you pop your headgaskets again? If you answered yes to any of these, stick with the 2.5. ;)

#16 afterbang

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 02:17 AM

i think people just get bummed when others trash on their cars. i have a 98 legacy outback that has had the HGs replaced some 80k miles ago. i've had the thing for 7 years and love it but i'm already keeping an eye out for the right low mileage ej22 to have just if it is time to call it quits on the EJ25D. i have faith in the upgraded head gasket design but i'm definitely not putting one back in there if something goes wrong.

i know of someone that has over 300k on a 98 forester that had the HGs replaced once but that may just be an anomoly... or a well cared for car.

#17 MaddCelt

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 05:10 AM

GD, I liked your post on it. Offering needed information along side info on the alternative back-up was spot on. Now, if everyone who pitched the EJ22 did the same all would be well.


It should be clarified that this post is dealing with the EJ25D only. EJ251/253 is a different world and the 22 swap doesn't typically apply.

I agree to a point. I will tell someone to repair their 2.5 if that's warranted. There was a recent thread from a member with 99k on an Outback and my advice was to replace the head gaskets.

But it's often a big gamble. I have done plenty of HG's on 2.5's and haven't had a single issue with one yet. But depending on mileage and treatment it's OFTEN more economical to put in a used 2.2.

The basic problem we are dealing with here is bottom-end failure due to lack of changing the headgaskets at the first signs of leakage. The 25D also has a propensity for burning large amounts of oil and thus running dry and throwing a rod that way.... when rebuilt and properly maintained they are a great engine....

As for availibility - I can often buy low mileage (150k or less) used EJ22's in my area for under $500. Availibility really depends on where you are located.

ALSO - people don't even talk about JDM EJ20's - those have about 150 HP and can be swapped into the EJ22/EJ25D cars with about the same amount of work and can be had cheap from the importers.

Another point to consider - the EJ22 has inexpensive or no required valve adjustment, timing belt kits are about $100 less..... etc. It's a cheaper engine to run, replace, and maintain. With the price of gas going nuts it's a no brainer which one I would choose. And power loss/mileage can be mitigated to some extent just by dropping a couple tire sizes on the Outback for street duty. I have 2.2'd a Legacy GT and the power loss wasn't a problem at all - in fact it was surprisingly peppy. The problem is that most of these swaps occur on taller geared Outbacks with tall tires. Thus the power loss....

GD



#18 MaddCelt

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 05:20 AM

In my defense, since I started the thread. :)

My biggest issue came when a person would ask for a specific piece of information and it would take reading through pointless posts to find what you needed. It's as annoying as asking a yes or no question and getting an explanation. And getting the email that someone replied get's you reved up to know the answer, only to get the rev drained. No fun.

I agree, this thread turned out to offer a great place to offer the pros and cons on the 2.2 vs 2.5 when considering a swap and making it sticky makes it a great place to point to when the topic comes up.

I am hoping to get my hands on a 2.2 or earlier engine for a back-up in the future.

#19 MilesFox

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 07:50 AM

same goes for all the hate on ea82 and ea82t. ea82t has a hose leak. chuck it and swap a 2.2, they say.

#20 davebugs

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 07:57 AM

Kinda funny that you've come full circle.

But honestly we were trying to help you all along.

You just had to be willing to listen to answers broader than your question.

In the end noone here makes or looses money on your decision. And the decision is yours to make.

We're just trying to share experience - which is probably exactly why you posted here to begin with. There is lots of good info and posters here.

Personally I wish you well whatever you choose. And folks here will continue to answer your questions. Although it's always a little better if you do some research before asking.

This is your first Subaru HG experience. Many here have run into this situation many, many times. And that's where all the suggestions came from. To help with the learning curve and options.

#21 walczyk

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 01:37 PM

I agree with the OP that the engine swap advice is handed out reflexively, even before anyone knows what 2.5 engine they are actually talking about. I still don't agree with the argument that finding and purchasing an EJ22 engine is easier than replacing head gaskets.

I agree with that the early EJ25 engine is a fickle beast, but the problems have been pretty much completely mitigated by re-designing the water jacket (in older models too much of the HG surface gets hit with coolant and the water pressure strains the HG among other things).

I'm rebuilding my EJ25 because it has 200k and they need new rod bearings eventually, but I think the reliability issues rest mainly on your skill and attention to detail when replacing the head gaskets. I have to admit that this is speculation, and I'll let everyone know if I spring an oil leak anytime soon.

Basicalllly, I think its worth mentioning an EJ22 swap but its not worth arguing for it. There are enough people replacing EJ25 HGs without problems to make it worthwhile to fix one yourself. (Again I've never touched a EJ25D)

#22 MaddCelt

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 04:59 PM

Was that to me? Just wondering.


Kinda funny that you've come full circle.

But honestly we were trying to help you all along.

You just had to be willing to listen to answers broader than your question.

In the end noone here makes or looses money on your decision. And the decision is yours to make.

We're just trying to share experience - which is probably exactly why you posted here to begin with. There is lots of good info and posters here.

Personally I wish you well whatever you choose. And folks here will continue to answer your questions. Although it's always a little better if you do some research before asking.

This is your first Subaru HG experience. Many here have run into this situation many, many times. And that's where all the suggestions came from. To help with the learning curve and options.



#23 superu

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 02:43 PM

Good read.

I appreciate the original idea, posting a specific wuestion to get a specific answer, but getting many tertiary posts redirecting the question, etc.

But on the topic of 2.5-2.2 swaps and not getting running the OB as well as the torque-ier more powerful 2.5, how well or poorly does a 2.2 turn 4.11 gears?

i'm curious about how a 2.2 turning 27" tires would do going from 3.90 final to 4.11 final, or even 4.44 final? would it have the power and torque to turn the gears effectively and use gearing to compensate for an upsize tire change?

Its a question of lower output 2.2's ability to run the 2.5's gearset.

I appologize if people feel this is a diversionary post, but this thread got me thinking of that question.

thanks

#24 wally

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 09:43 AM

But on the topic of 2.5-2.2 swaps and not getting running the OB as well as the torque-ier more powerful 2.5, how well or poorly does a 2.2 turn 4.11 gears?

i'm curious about how a 2.2 turning 27" tires would do going from 3.90 final to 4.11 final, or even 4.44 final? would it have the power and torque to turn the gears effectively and use gearing to compensate for an upsize tire change?


the 2.2 will turn the 4.11s or lower (numerically higher) gears better than it will turn the 3.90s with the same tire/wheel combo.

higher (numerically lower) gears are more difficult to turn, as the ratio is closer to 1. i need only look at my dump truck for an example. it's only a 237 ci engine (flathead). the truck weighs over 4 tons empty. but the axle gearing is around 6.7 to one and 8.25 to 1 (2 speed rear). the engine easily moves the truck along, fully loaded (over 8 tons), just slowly. plenty of "power", minimal speed, no chance of stalling. it's all about low gearing.

#25 superu

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 10:58 AM

the 2.2 will turn the 4.11s or lower (numerically higher) gears better than it will turn the 3.90s with the same tire/wheel combo.

higher (numerically lower) gears are more difficult to turn, as the ratio is closer to 1. i need only look at my dump truck for an example. it's only a 237 ci engine (flathead). the truck weighs over 4 tons empty. but the axle gearing is around 6.7 to one and 8.25 to 1 (2 speed rear). the engine easily moves the truck along, fully loaded (over 8 tons), just slowly. plenty of "power", minimal speed, no chance of stalling. it's all about low gearing.


awesome, thanks!




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