General chaos Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 93 legacy sedan 2.2 at awd. i removed the timing belt today. i rolled the engine over using the bolt on the drivers side timing gear. it didnt slip. it just turned the belt and everything. i knew to line up the notches on both cam gears so when i put the belt back it would be fine. this is the same thign i did last summer when i changed the water pump. ok so i have the belt off. and then i cant get the crank gear off. it didnt turn or even move in or out for me. so i put the belt back on. noting that the arrow on the crank gear was pointing sideways. now how it was pointing sideways i dont know. the car was running when it was parked in this parking stall. is it possible that the belt jumped when it shut off? the belt is very worn it has cracks in it. i dont have the cash to buy a new belt so i put it all back together and of course it wouldnt start. probably because the gear was pointing sideways. i know i should have pointed it back upwards. but i didnt because that is how it was to begin with. my only conclusion is that the belt must have jumped. after the tensioner got to full strength the belt seemed nice and tight. or is it possible i got it 180 out some how. that doesnt make sence though. i fit were 180 out the crank arrow would have been pointing downward not sideways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 it sounds like the crank is in the corrwct position. what about the cam sprockets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General chaos Posted April 1, 2011 Author Share Posted April 1, 2011 the slices in the cam gears where aligned with the notches in the back cover. maybe it just isnt ready to start yet. maybe i dont have to take it back apart. let me mess with it again. it may have been sitting too long. it has started pulling that little trick on me lately. i could smell fuel when i got out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General chaos Posted April 2, 2011 Author Share Posted April 2, 2011 still no start. i am going to take the covers off and look at it. those piston position marks. i am guessing they should point the way the diagram shows. even if i am half a tooth off this thing should fire up shouldnt it. after all there is no distributor. but just run sloppy? also i noticed theat the cam on the drivers side required a socket to tuen the pulley. but the passenger side was so loose my hand bumping it would move it out of place. i had to put it back in place twice. it didnt go very far. so it is where it is suppose to be at. could soem valves got bent and the cam is loose. or is there just no tension at this point when timing the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) a 93 ej22 no way you could have bent the valves.. thats a good thing Do not use the piston marks on anything. Ignore them forever really. Only go by alignment marks on the picture. The crankshaft sprocket has a notch at the BACK. Use the back mark and align it to the notch on the block. This diagram provided is not very good. I will search for better. the mark is at the back. Edited April 2, 2011 by bheinen74 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 or is there just no tension at this point when timing the engine. There's no compression on the Right (passenger) side cam so it can be positioned easily. The Left (driver) side does have compression, it will resist you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General chaos Posted April 2, 2011 Author Share Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) i decied to start from basics. spark and fuel. i know i have fuel i can smell it. but i have no spark coming out of the coil pack. i check the connection near where i pulled the plug out of the rear of the engine to see the torque converter. it was plugged in a wiggling it didnt help. so how do i determine if the coil pack is getting power. well how much power should be at the plug? and or if the coikl pack has suddenly went bad on me? should i be getting a full 12 volts coming into the coil pack? Edited April 2, 2011 by General chaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General chaos Posted April 2, 2011 Author Share Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) i tis out of time. both cam pulleys are right but the crank isnt. the adjuster must have moved the belt more after i put the cover back on. i thought i waited long enough. it all seemed tight. Edited April 2, 2011 by General chaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 This is what marks to use. Left side Middle Right side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General chaos Posted April 2, 2011 Author Share Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) those are the marks i used. it moved on me somehow. Edited April 2, 2011 by General chaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzpile Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) Actually, when you think of it GenC, it could happen. I don't mean to lecture or anything. It's just a combination of your circumstances. You already said the belt was in poor condition,evn had cracks. That means it's stretched and the lobes have worn too. Consider that the crank has half the (teeth) of each of the timing sprockets. The mechanical advantage of the crank sprocket is reduced at least 4X when driven backwards. Then IT has to overcome the compression resistance of the opposing bank. So belt area to the opposing bank would just like to bend and ride over the crank sprocket. I'm editting because I thought you had been turning the passenger side. Much of this doesn't apply yet maybe worth knowing. Turning the LH/drivers side should have had better luck. IIRC it takes a few revs for the marks to line up right again. Woulda been easier with plugs out man. Edited April 2, 2011 by Fuzpile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General chaos Posted April 2, 2011 Author Share Posted April 2, 2011 i just let the tensioner off so the bel tis out there tigthening down as i type. it was pretty tight when i came inside just now. but i wanted to look at the diagrams one more tiem before i started doing anything else to it. so far this morning i have tore everything down. and degreased everything under there. i pulled the water pump too bcause it had slight leakage around the gasket area. the gasket was in good shape. i put silicoen between the gasket and block. i don't like doing that. but i did anyway to stop any more leaking. when i put the used belt back on i did roll the enigne slightly to compensate for a worn and stretched belt. not very much but just enough that it would roll into the right position when the belt tightened up. i did the same thing last year. and it worked. i am not sure what i did wrong yesterday. but it wasnt right. lets hope this works this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzpile Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Hey GenC. Good luck man. Turn it some cycles by hand and check for interference. Sorry you didn't have a new belt. There's one bolt of the waterpump which gets overlooked. Don't overlook it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General chaos Posted April 2, 2011 Author Share Posted April 2, 2011 everything is all lined up. but i still have no spark. now what do i test? and what voltages and i looking for? 12 volts to the coil pack. from where. the crank angle sensor? all the teeth are on the crank gear. this car was running when parked to work on it. now nothing. i have wiggled plugs and i have no power getting to the coil pack when key on key off or when cranking the engine over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzpile Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 There's fuze #16 in direct line to power the whole mess. If there is no 12v at one end of the fuse conn, there is what is probably a meltable area of wire, a fuseable link, before the ignition sw. This one is identified as SBF-4. I have a Haynes and will look that up if needed. that means Slo-blo fuse and folks here probably know excactly where that is. I haven't had these type problems yet. One thing I need mention is recalling my similar work, I needed to remove the driver side cam sprocket and the cam angle sensor. I don't remember excactly why. Maybe to access the wp better or there was Some reason. Anyway since that sensor is tied into the whole deal with the ECM, it has to be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General chaos Posted April 2, 2011 Author Share Posted April 2, 2011 i had actually considered the cam sensor and the pulley not lining up exactly. because of the worn belt. now this pulley has a mark on it. i painted it white. there is also a green factory mark on it but it is off by a bit. what do yo uthink. should i line up with the green mark instead? if i would remember right. the green mark may have lined up better last year than the stamped mark i painted this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General chaos Posted April 2, 2011 Author Share Posted April 2, 2011 ok. i am going to the library and look at the wiring diagrams. while i am gone i am going to ask this. even if the timing belt were on wrong i mean a little or alot. wouldnt the system still fire. even if it didnt start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 I don't know why you assumed the factory mark on the sprocket was wrong... Even if you have the timing off it should still spark. You have a non-interference engine, so no matter what you do with the timing belt you're not gonna ruin it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzpile Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 Goodnite I forgot it was '93. All kinds of different pulley/sprockets on the cam. The print earlier provided by our friend match up to my '97 well. It's a different pulley with marks all over it. I believe that the piston location arrow, which appears to be around 1:30 o'clock in Your pic means your mark is about right. In my case it was a notch at the rear of the pulley(probably why I took it off to check{because nothing was lining up}) anyway good pics. I coulda used them as mine is interferable,big time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 (edited) a 93 ej22 no way you could have bent the valves.. thats a good thing Do not use the piston marks on anything. Ignore them forever really. Only go by alignment marks on the picture. The crankshaft sprocket has a notch at the BACK. Use the back mark and align it to the notch on the block. This diagram provided is not very good. I will search for better. the mark is at the back. this is how you do it. follow this. Edited April 4, 2011 by bheinen74 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 In this photo it looks like you haven't slid the tensioner over and then bolted it down. There should be a gap between the tensioner bracket and the tensioner itself on the right side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General chaos Posted April 4, 2011 Author Share Posted April 4, 2011 when i took this photo all the timing marks were lined up. i then rolled the engine into this location to demonstrate what i was asking. if the liens had to exact. and if the green mark was a factory mistake. i did see earlier in this thread that one person showing a close up where his mark wasn't exact. but the white mark on the belt was lined up. i am not getting spark. i do not know why. there is no power or pulses going to the coil pack. if the crank and cam sensors have to be exact to fire the coil pack and create spark. then the belt must be stretched just a slight. not as shown in the picture. i have ordered a new belt just to eliminate this as a question. what i cant believe is why no one will even consider answering the question as to how to test for pulses to and from the sensors. or power to the coil pack. i have seen the wiring diagram from the coil pack to igniter and to the mpfi control box. there ia diode in the yellow wire and red/green also blue go to the igniter. i did not get time yet to check the igniter if power was coming or going to it. i did check fuse 16. the fuse is good. and has 8 volts of power with key off. that is as far as i have gotten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) noting that the arrow on the crank gear was pointing sideways. now how it was pointing sideways i dont know..................................or is it possible i got it 180 out some how. that doesnt make sence though. i fit were 180 out the crank arrow would have been pointing downward not sideways. Use the hashmarks. Not the arrows. The crank sprocket the mark is on the tab in the back, hard to see. It is directly opposite of the woodruff key. (key should be at 6 o'clock) Also, the notches in the plastic covers are sometimes shifted a hair from defromation of the plastic over time. Put the marks EXCACTLY at 12 o'clock, even if they are slightly off the notches. This here looks one tooth off to the left. Mark should be straight up and down. Edited April 4, 2011 by Gloyale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General chaos Posted April 4, 2011 Author Share Posted April 4, 2011 well i think it may be time to do a new thread. it is in time with the hash mark or stamped marks. the coil pack isnt getting anything to it. to let it spark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 well i think it may be time to do a new thread. it is in time with the hash mark or stamped marks. the coil pack isnt getting anything to it. to let it spark. Does the Tachometer jump while you crank it over? If so, you've got pulse. Check for 12v on the center wire of the coil connector. Double check the connectors for the Cam and Crank sensors at the back of the block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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