greenleg88 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 hello all, i am trying to deal with a friends 1997 legacy L sedan - automatic with ~170k miles -the alternator was replaced one year ago, plugs and wires were changed around the same time. the scenario was, car was driving on highway and suddenly stumbling on itself as it shuddered and shook and eventually stalled. The car would not start up again, (i am unsure of how and why or what the car did as it would not start but i was given the description it sounded like blending metal). i saw the car today, and i was surprised to find that the battery was practically dead. i jumped the car and it started after about 5 cranks, and idled VERY VERY rough. i noticed the AT OIL TEMP light flashed 5 times before it stalled. and then i tried to count the flashes and counted 15 flashes. the car would stay on for a little longer if the throttle was opened but would still idle very rough. I left the car to sit as i went to pick up a code reader, when i came back the car would not start with a jump. the car would crank about 5 times and then seemed as if the starter had slipped. (i would describe the sound as something hitting a sanding belt...) the codes: P0325- knock sensor 1 bank 1 P0336- crank position sensor A Range/Performance P0341- cam position sensor A Range/Performance B1 P0420- catalyst system below threshold bank 1 P0440- evap emission system can anyone shed any light on this combination of codes? i was told the car was driven with a CEL for some time, the mechanic had told them it was something related with the fuel tank, but my friend does not remember what. based on the descriptions i have been given, i suspect a fuel pump or clogged fuel filter. any experience or advice is much appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 When you have multiple codes you always look for a common denomnator. I see a jumped timing belt, Evap may be just a fluke, but the rest make sense along with the sudden onset of the problems. Start there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 When you have multiple codes you always look for a common denomnator. I see a jumped timing belt, Evap may be just a fluke, but the rest make sense along with the sudden onset of the problems. Start there. May be a good guess. I had a freind (a Subaru tech) do a timing belt job on his daughters car. Got weird cam/crank sensor codes. We ruined 3 cam sensors pulling them out of other engines. Tried a different cam sensor too. Eventually he did remove timing belt covers and confirm it was off a tooth or two. Car isn't stmart enough to tell you outright timing was off. But it did realize crank and cam inputs were non-standard. And he had probably done thousands of timing belt jobs as a Subaru tech for 20 years. I'd start by pulling front timing covers on both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 If the cam and crank sensors do not synch the way the puter thinks they should it will throw those codes sometimes. It will throw them for a big TB jump. Timing chains and belts if tired will usually jump under sudden unloading, like chainging throttle position dramatically or shutting the car off. Dont try to start it anymore as you have jumped more then a tooth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenleg88 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Share Posted June 2, 2011 If the cam and crank sensors do not synch the way the puter thinks they should it will throw those codes sometimes. It will throw them for a big TB jump. Timing chains and belts if tired will usually jump under sudden unloading, like chainging throttle position dramatically or shutting the car off. Dont try to start it anymore as you have jumped more then a tooth. hmm. that was also one of my first thoughts (timing belt either snapped or slipped) but i was really hoping not. okay. i appreciate the comments! i will take a look once i get a hold of some tools.... (i left my tools at school and im only home for a few days). there should be a mark on the timing belt that should line up with the cam markings correct? i know it would be in the best interest of the car to change the timing belt at this point, but at this very moment, is it safe to just undo the TB tensioner and just set it straight or are there some important steps im missing. also how do i know if theres any valve damage? thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Guessing this is a 2.2? If the timing belt jumped there's a good chance it has valve damage. P0420 and P0325 are both common codes on these. You can search the board here and come up with plenty of threads on how to fix them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 All it takes is a 10mm to pull I believe 3 bolts per side on the "ears" of the front covers. I use a 1/4 drive roto ratchet with a long socket. See if the hakh marks on the cam sprockets line up with the back of the timing belt cover on BOTH SIDES AT THE SAME TIME. That'll give you some information. Actually to fully check it you need to remove a bunch more stuff then the harmonic balancer and middle section of the timing belt cover. Compression check is best to check for valve damage. But visually checking the TB for alignment first is needed. Otherwise you may cause more damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 based on the desription and the cam and crank codes i'd be looking at the timing belt as well. no way to verify the valves without further inspection. the easiest way is to slap another belt on and see if it runs. otherwise you need to pull valve covers or do a leak down test to try and figure it out. get your crank marker lined up, then rotate cams back in place to install belt. the belt can break, tensioner can fail, and pulleys can seize. without taking it apart there's no way to know what happened. when was the timing belt last replaced? what engine? the catalyst system and evap codes won't cause any of the issues you're describing so i doubt they're unrelated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Catalyst can be reading unburnt fuel or incomplet combustion and will throw a code as it can not correct the issue. Do not rely on marks on belts as they may mean nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Catalyst can be reading unburnt fuel or incomplet combustion and will throw a code as it can not correct the issue. Do not rely on marks on belts as they may mean nothing. Maybe if they drove it that way for miles at a time. Sounds like the belt jumped and the car died within a few seconds. Not enough time for the ECU to run the fault diagnosis for the P0420. A current P0420 can not be set without the car being driven. The code must be old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Maybe if they drove it that way for miles at a time. Sounds like the belt jumped and the car died within a few seconds. Not enough time for the ECU to run the fault diagnosis for the P0420. A current P0420 can not be set without the car being driven. The code must be old. I am going with it being related, but we all agree the evap is a fluke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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