brus brother Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 05 Outback 105,000 miles started having problems about a year ago where noticeable noise L front. Took to dealer and tech said tire was cupping, advised rotate to rear. Sound diminished but now same location (L front tire) is cupped again. When I asked them to check the suspension, they suggested lower control arm bushings and sway bar links were wearing. Could also need alignment?? Tires have some life but the noise is intolerable. Few questions. Is this a DIY repair w/o a lift? To sequence the remedy properly, should I do the bushings/links prior to alignment and installing new tires? Would it be possible to do the bushings/links and alignment and get the rest of the life out of the tires, or will the sound persist regardless? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Tire cupping is caused by poor tire balance, or worn suspension or steering components. Since you moved the first cupping tire to the rear, and now another tire is beginning to cup in the same front location, I gotta think it is worn steering or suspension parts, not a tire balance problem. Suggest you get the car up on a lift, or jacked up with front wheel off the ground. Try wrestling the road wheel in and out, up and down, left to right to see if the road wheel has any loose play. It is that loose play that allows the road wheel to move about on its own, and slightly hop up and down cause the cupping. I am thinking you have a bad ball joint or tie rod end. Also possible that the strut is bad. A front end alignment could be needed, but first find and fix what is allowing the wheel hop. Also... a good front end alignment shop will be able to tell you what is causing the wheel hop. Once a tire is cupped, about all you can do with it, is to run it on the rear of the car for the remainder of its life, or just replace the tire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 has it ever had an alignment? ever been wrecked? anything other than normal maintenance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brus brother Posted June 3, 2011 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 Car was never wrecked. Had a small hit on the L rear bumper without much damage. Did not have alignment done when Goodyear Triple Treads replaced the original Potenzas. Is it possible that alignmet alone could cause cupping? When you say "alignment shop" is the dealer not to be included in this designation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 anything is possible, but in this case, not necessarily probable... I would also suspect worn componants, tie rod ends, ball joint, bad strut, bushings to a lesser degree (unless they are very obviously falling apart) my personal opinion - get a second opinion at a reputable independant shop - i personally do not "trust" dealers 100% - but that is me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Struts, worn bushings are likely the problem here. Do you spend a lot of time on rough roads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp98 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I'd take it to a good alignment shop and have them check it. As has been said them quite possibly will tell you what the problem is and then it is up to you to either have them fix it or take it home and do it yourself. Perhaps I am lucky in that I have a alignment shop that will check it for free and let me know what is bad if anything. They don't push for them to do the fix but they also will not align the wheels until the problem is fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Car was never wrecked. Had a small hit on the L rear bumper without much damage. Did not have alignment done when Goodyear Triple Treads replaced the original Potenzas. Is it possible that alignmet alone could cause cupping? When you say "alignment shop" is the dealer not to be included in this designation? No, alignment alone would not cause this problem. There is something loose from wear in the suspension that is allowing the road wheel to hop up and down to cause the cupping. Alignment simply squares up the tire/wheel, so that the car rolls with full and even tire tread contact on the pavement. Out of alignment results in excessive tire wear on either the inside or outside of the tire tread. Dealers do have alignment equipment in their repair shops, however, at a lower cost compared to a dealer, I would go to an independent shop. Many times tire stores offer alignment service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 slightly off topic but on the subject of alignments: the local merchants tire store has a computerized machine and the software tells the tech that in order to adjust the front camber on subarus ''aftermarket cam bolts'' were needed. on their 3rd try to get my alignment right, i watched them and corrected them. they finally got it right. also, free alignment checks should be the norm since it takes less than 10 minutes to snap on the hardware and check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brus brother Posted June 4, 2011 Author Share Posted June 4, 2011 No, alignment alone would not cause this problem. There is something loose from wear in the suspension that is allowing the road wheel to hop up and down to cause the cupping. Alignment simply squares up the tire/wheel, so that the car rolls with full and even tire tread contact on the pavement. Out of alignment results in excessive tire wear on either the inside or outside of the tire tread. Dealers do have alignment equipment in their repair shops, however, at a lower cost compared to a dealer, I would go to an independent shop. Many times tire stores offer alignment service. Well my local dealer charges $69 special for alignment and indie charges a little more. What concerns me is that I chewed through a perfectly good set of tires and may be embarking on the same trip again. The service manager didn't make it seem that the bushings were so horrible when noting wear after my second complaint about noise. The first time I was instructed to simply move the bad tire to the rear. What bothers me is that I seem to have a sound at relatively low speeds which my way of thinking would mean wheel bearing yet the dealer said the bearing was fine. QUESTION: Could bad L front bearing cause the cupping? AND wouldn't the bearing have become noticeably worse after what I am guessing is nearly 10K miles since I first complained. I hate not having a diagnosis before diving in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Well my local dealer charges $69 special for alignment and indie charges a little more.What concerns me is that I chewed through a perfectly good set of tires and may be embarking on the same trip again. The service manager didn't make it seem that the bushings were so horrible when noting wear after my second complaint about noise. The first time I was instructed to simply move the bad tire to the rear. What bothers me is that I seem to have a sound at relatively low speeds which my way of thinking would mean wheel bearing yet the dealer said the bearing was fine. QUESTION: Could bad L front bearing cause the cupping? AND wouldn't the bearing have become noticeably worse after what I am guessing is nearly 10K miles since I first complained. I hate not having a diagnosis before diving in. I am surprised that the service manager would be so casual and unconcerned about fixing your tire cupping problem. Putting your cupped tire on the rear did nothing to fix your problem. Like you said, it is just ruining more tires. A bad wheel bearing starts making an rrrrrrrrrrr sound when making hard sweeping turns in one direction, but not when going straight. The noise you are prolly hearing now is from the damaged tire. I doubt that a wheel bearing is your problem. Diagnosing your problem should be quick and easy taking less than 5 minutes time at an independent garage. Usually there is no charge at a reputable shop to simply put the car up on their lift, and look for "play" in suspension parts. This approach is the logical way of finding out what is wrong. A mechanic will be able take you out into his shop, have you stand near or under your car, and show you what is loose and allowing the wheel to hop, then will quote you a price to fix the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Tire cupping, the most likely issue on a car with 100K on it is a bad strut. Wheel alignment will not cause this issue. What is happening is that the tire is bouncing up and down on the road. This can not be seen as it is just chainging the load on the tire. Random cupping will be a strut. Cupping in the same spots will be a wheel balance issue. This is easy enough to diagnose as only a few things cause it. A bad wheel bearing will not. Make sure the tries are mounted in the proper direction. This sounds silly b ut most tires are directional now. Cheap tires can cause it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 go to an independant shop and ask them to do an inspection on the front end - most GOOD independant shops do not charge for a simple inspection, or at most maybe $20-25 just to take a look at it to cover the time of the tech. looking it over. Should only take a few minutes to find out what needs to be done. You are NOT getting an alignment at this point - just an inspection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brus brother Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 Well today I had the dealer mount and balance 4 new Kumho Ectsa Plat LX and do an alignment. I don't have the readout in front of me but all 4 corners of the car were in the red zone and greened up nicely after alignment so I guess the 4 corners were fighting each other as the car was skipping down the road. The tech who I trust explicitly said the front bushings were fine but the rear ones were stiff. "Keep an eye on any abnormal wear and replace those if noted". So for $119 total installation/alignment I am pretty happy. The car rides great. Dealers can get bad raps but here I have to say, thanks Dan Perkins Subaru. (Just wish I got an alignment before I sent the Goodyear Triple Treads to an early grave!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Well today I had the dealer mount and balance 4 new Kumho Ectsa Plat LX and do an alignment. I don't have the readout in front of me but all 4 corners of the car were in the red zone and greened up nicely after alignment so I guess the 4 corners were fighting each other as the car was skipping down the road. The tech who I trust explicitly said the front bushings were fine but the rear ones were stiff. "Keep an eye on any abnormal wear and replace those if noted". So for $119 total installation/alignment I am pretty happy. The car rides great. Dealers can get bad raps but here I have to say, thanks Dan Perkins Subaru.(Just wish I got an alignment before I sent the Goodyear Triple Treads to an early grave!) And I am going to bet that in a few thousand miles you are going to have the same problem again - there is a reason that the alignment was out of whack - there are worn components!!! Your so called Dealer is rippin you off if they are just selling you tires and alignment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 And I am going to bet that in a few thousand miles you are going to have the same problem again - there is a reason that the alignment was out of whack - there are worn components!!! Your so called Dealer is rippin you off if they are just selling you tires and alignment. I agree. Cupping is not an alignment issue. Your alignment may have been out, and I find it a little hard to beleive that all four wheels were out of alighnment. 1 yes, 2 yes, 3 possibly, 4 what the heck did you hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I agree. Cupping is not an alignment issue. Your alignment may have been out, and I find it a little hard to beleive that all four wheels were out of alighnment. 1 yes, 2 yes, 3 possibly, 4 what the heck did you hit. I thirdly agree that your cupping problem has not been solved. You are still driving around on warn suspension components. Plan on buying another set of tires within 6 months if you don't truly get this problem fixed. Recommend you get a second opinion from another mechanic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brus brother Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 And I am going to bet that in a few thousand miles you are going to have the same problem again - there is a reason that the alignment was out of whack - there are worn components!!! Your so called Dealer is rippin you off if they are just selling you tires and alignment. I provided the tires, they only mounted ($40) and did alignment ($70). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankosolder2 Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 It might be a good idea to closely monitor your tires. If you see even the slightest traces of uneven wear or cupping, you'll know the problem has not been solved and will have the opportunity to solve it before the tires are ruined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I provided the tires, they only mounted ($40) and did alignment ($70). Next time get the lifetime alignment, that will make them fix it fast. They will loose money if they have to realign the car every 6 months. There is one other..outside....longshot....question. Has this car ever been hit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 slightly off topic but on the subject of alignments: the local merchants tire store has a computerized machine and the software tells the tech that in order to adjust the front camber on subarus ''aftermarket cam bolts'' were needed. on their 3rd try to get my alignment right, i watched them and corrected them. they finally got it right. also, free alignment checks should be the norm since it takes less than 10 minutes to snap on the hardware and check. If the car is stock, they should not have needed to do this. If the car is lifted in any way then yes this is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brus brother Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) If the car is stock, they should not have needed to do this. If the car is lifted in any way then yes this is needed. Everything is stock. The car was hit on the left rear bumper that required about $500 worth of repairs. Didn't check alignment at that time BUT timing (about two years ago) might be about right for when I first noticed. Related?? Following are the before and after alignment specs. BTW Tech said everything was rusted solid (thank you NE salted roads) click on thumbnail below Edited June 23, 2011 by brus brother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 what is cupping/scalloping again? hope it holds for you. i had mine aligned, it was out and still appears to be wearing oddly. i'll have to check, seems to be wearing on the outside...but seems like it's only happening in the summer? anyway - was curious how closely mine is to yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brus brother Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) what is cupping/scalloping again? hope it holds for you. i had mine aligned, it was out and still appears to be wearing oddly. i'll have to check, seems to be wearing on the outside...but seems like it's only happening in the summer? anyway - was curious how closely mine is to yours? if you run your hand over the surface of the tire (along the edge in my case at least) you'll feel areas of wear then not then wear like the edge of a scallop shell. What everyone is saying about suspension makes sense as the tire is bouncing on the road (wearing the spots where it hits) but no one told me the shocks were worn and the rest of the suspension seems ok with the exception of the rear bushings which I may change out myself as they seem pretty easy. The question I have about that theory is how the tire knows how to hit the same spot when it's bouncing?? Edited June 23, 2011 by brus brother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 if you run your hand over the surface of the tire (along the edge in my case at least) you'll feel areas of wear then not then wear like the edge of a scallop shell. What everyone is saying about suspension makes sense as the tire is bouncing on the road (wearing the spots where it hits) but no one told me the shocks were worn and the rest of the suspension seems ok with the exception of the rear bushings which I may change out myself as they seem pretty easy. The question I have about that theory is how the tire knows how to hit the same spot when it's bouncing?? afraid I cant actually answer that one for you, but to my mind, once that kind of thing starts, it tends to continue in the same "pattern" if you will - I am sure someone with more knowledge in physics could answer more completely for you tho. regardless tho - you REALLY need to go get an INSPECTION of the suspension - by someone OTHER than your dealer. Talk to friends, neighbors, co-workers, find out who they go to/trust for suspension work, then go there - an inspection should not cost you much - doesnt take long either. My local repair shop charged me $25 to do a complete suspension inspection - they then pointed out all of the things found, gave me a printout of recommended repairs and I was out of there (i did take it back later & let them do the rear wheel bearing that was going out) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.