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Replacing an EJ25D with an EJ22... nightmarish


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26 replies to this topic

#1 jarl

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 06:21 PM

So... I have tried to compile the information I need to replace my '99 Outback' EJ25D with an earlier EJ22, but there is so much *conflicting* information this is quickly getting ugly.

I have read somewhere else that I can remove the EJ25D and throw in the EJ22 just carrying over the EJ25D intake manifold and flexplate, and -depending on the year of the 2.2- using the original or the donor's Y pipe. Now I'm reading that some 2.2 don't have the EGR pipe, that I may need to replace the ECU, that the starter motor may not work, etc. So, what's the real story? This thread talks about an EJ25D to EJ22 swap and paints things very nice, but I wonder if because of the MY ('99 vs '96) something may have changed.

I just want to replace the engine with one that works, but I don't want to mess with ECUs or mess too much with modifications. If anything, I like to get more MPG out of the swap (and keep using regular fuel). I hope it's not too much to ask...

BTW: WJM... if you see this could you let me know? I have a question regarding one of your posts, but I can't seem to be able to find how to send a PM :(

#2 Gloyale

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 07:46 PM

1. If using an 90-94 EJ22.....

Swap all the wiring harness and the throttle body of the 2.5 onto the 2.2 intake. Use existing y-pipe from 2.5. No EGR, may thow a code.


2. If using an 95 EJ22 from Automatic.......

Plug and play. Will have EGR nad every damn thing. Should be Dual port as well.

3. If using an 95 EJ22 from Manual.......

Still plug and play, with the exception that you will not have EGR, may throw code.

4. If using an 96 to 98 EJ22 from Automatic........

Plug and play, will have EGR. But will be single port, need matching y-pipe.

5. If using and 96 to 98 EJ22 from manual......

Plug and play, no EGR, Single port....need y-pipe.




So you see lots of combos are possible.......but only a 95, automatic, EJ22 will be a no modification affair.

Also no need to swap ECUs at all. the 2.5 ECU will run any 2.2 if set up properly.

#3 jarl

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 08:08 PM

Allright... so the picture IS that rosy after all :banana:

I guess some of the threads I saw were from people installing an AT on an MT vehicle or viceversa, but if things are as simple as you say it should be a no-brainer.

The only question left is, given the engines I have seen at Car-Part.com, which year to use. I understand the '97-'98 are interference engines, while the previous years are not, but is this something normal users should worry about? '97-'98 are also more powerful and slightly more efficient too, from what I have read. Do you guys have any preference?

[edit] One last question: I assume '95 were pre-OBDII engines. Is there any problem with that?

Edited by jarl, 21 June 2011 - 08:20 PM.


#4 grossgary

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 08:58 PM

plug and play EJ22 swap:

1995 with EGR (for this one year all automatics have EGR)
1996-1998 with EGR and get the exhaust manifold with it.

follow the above and it's plug and play swap.

EJ25D and EJ22 intakes are not interchangeable.

use EJ25 flexplate on EJ22 engine.

from 1996-1998 there's no definitive way to determine which have EGR - but 90%+ in my area have EGR for these years.

the earlier style tensioner is cheaper and far more reliable than the newer style tensioners which suck in my opinion. $80 timing belt kits instead of $200. and non-interference.

interference/non interference isn't a huge deal if the engine is properly maintained. at 15+ years old all the timing pulleys and tensioner should be replaced. do that and you have nothing to worry about. probably the water pump too, though they rarely fail in EJ engines it's a good idea on interference engines where the tbelt drives the water pump.

#5 jarl

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 10:59 PM

Good advise...

My only concern going for a '95 is the lower power/torque output. I'm just speculating here, but I'm afraid the large mass of the car ('99 Outback Wagon Ltd.) will force me to use a heavier right foot than I would need if I go with a later MY.

According to what I have found, the difference in power between the '95 and '98 EJ22 is 10% (~14 HP), and since I'm already giving up some 20 HP from going from an EJ25 to an EJ22 I may end up suffering in daily traffic. Are these concerns unfounded?

#6 grossgary

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 10:45 AM

good question. i went even further so i'll comment on mine - i swapped an EJ18 into my Legacy LSi that originally had an EJ25D - so same swap as you just with an even smaller motor. it is gutless but here's my personal take on it:

i don't even think about it in flatland. when we drive to ohio and indiana, down south in georgia and florida - it's awesome, don't even notice it. but i'm not a speed demon, accelerating fast person - i just want good, reliable, cheap transportation (as you can tell by all the states i've driven it too recently) that isn't annoying to drive.

around here, i live in the mountains of WV and the steep grades kill it. it's still one of my two daily drivers. it's fine but slow on the steep mountains around here, and it's annoying taking off with people coming or downshifting a lot. if i had it to do again i'd drop in an EJ22 instead just because of the mountains. if i was living in flatland i'd keep it the same.

i get 30-32 mpg in flat areas (with an automatic) and only 23-28 highway in the mountains (varies a lot based on how fast i drive).

but that's all with an even smaller underpowered motor.

i think it'll come down to your personal preference. it'll be perfectly drivable in your flat area and i would personally be fine with the loss of 14hp being behind a MT and in flatland. but if you like to accelerate fast and drive aggressive you might want the 14hp.

if you're going to travel a lot, tow, carry heavy loads...then that might sway your decision too. i have a family so i'm carrying wife, kids, strollers, bikes, packed pretty full usually too.

#7 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 03:07 PM

There is no difference between the HP output of '90 through '98 EJ22's. They are all ~135 HP. The change happened in '99 when they went to the phase-II EJ22 which increased the power to 147 HP.... but that engine was only produced for 3 years and is NOT compatible with a 25D swap.

So don't concern yourself about the power - the '96 Outback had the same size tires and suspension as you have on your '99 and went down the road just fine with it's stock 2.2. You have nothing to worry about.

GD

#8 jarl

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 03:21 PM

Thank you for the information. It really make things easier :)
I'm not interested in racing this car, so a little less power doesn't bother me too much. I'm thinking more on stop-and-go traffic, where moving the extra mass may make a difference. But it's probably not that bad. I think I found an EJ22 and I'll go and check it tomorrow.

One question, though: I understand the EJ22 have just 4 engine-to-transmission bolts, while my EJ25 has 8. I read somewhere that the 4 holes line up, but there's a problem with the starter motor (one of the bolts is missing). How do you mount the starter motor, then?

#9 grossgary

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 03:27 PM

it'll all work out - the 4 you need line up, so just use those 4 and you're golden.

wait GD there is a difference - the EJ22 horsepower went from 135 to 137 between 1995 and 1998. :lol:

like he said the Phase II 99 Ej22 is not compatible with yours at all.

the EJ18 only has 110 hp for comparison to my experiences.

Edited by grossgary, 22 June 2011 - 03:30 PM.


#10 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 10:55 PM

The issue is that the lower bolt for the starter on the '99 won't thread into the block so you either have to leave it off (many folks do without issue) or you can heli-coil the hole in the tranmission and install a stud there (EJ exhaust stud will work - pull one from your dead 2.5 and heli-coil the hole in the hole in the transmission to 10mm x 1.25) to put a nut on like all the '98 and older transmisions are built. It's really not a big deal either way.

GD

#11 jarl

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 11:49 PM

Well, that's good news... I had seen a message somewhere suggesting to drill/tap a hole in the bellhousing, but saying it would be very hard t get an acceptable result.

Now, let me share the story of how I learned a little more about the human race and it's (my) stupidity:

I've been checking car-part.com the last few days, and identified a low-ish miles '95 Impreza EJ22 engine at a local "salvage parts dealer" (euphemism for junkyard with a database). Asked the guy the story of the engine, whether it was tested or not ("tested before being pulled", he said), etc. The "dealer" (I'm starting to get nauseated by that word) said the car was around 90K miles when it was hit on the right side. The engine has been pulled already when I got it and the car wasn't there to see it.

Being a newbie at buying used engines, it never occurred to me they will actually have, much less share, the VIN of the car... But the bill included a VIN that I just Auto-checked. The last entry on the autocheck is a "right front impact with a utility pole"... in 2006!!! WTF :mad: ??? There are no title registrations or renewals after january 2006, so this car/engine have been in limbo for the last 5 years :banghead: ! No surprise it has relatively low miles (to be fair, it had low miles even in 2003: 60K miles in 8 years)

The engine has a 90 day warranty (for what it's worth), but that just means I would have to go and get another engine from the same place. Therefore, I'd like to pretend I know nothing about the history of the car, as long as the engine is in working order. The question is what should I be looking at to make sure the engine is fine, before mounting it in the car and *maybe* discovering it's little more than a paperweight? How can I confirm the condition of the engine without mounting it, or taking it apart to the last piece?

Furthermore, I was planning on replacing the timing belt/idlers/tensioner and water pump even before learning about this BS. Knowing what I know now, what else should I consider replacing?

Edited by jarl, 23 June 2011 - 11:59 PM.


#12 grossgary

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 04:08 AM

no worries. cars end up as parts cars for a reason. wrecked cars are preferred - it means the car was running fine just before impact. a perfectly good looking car in the yard suggests something unknown but major is wrong with it. doesn't take much to total an EJ22 vehicle, they're 15 years old now.

a wreck shouldn't hurt the engine unless the car is left running or oil supply is compromised (rare).

if the timing covers aren't cracked then that's a good sign it wasn't that bad of an accident. a bad accident will crack the timing covers....ruin cam sprockets. you don't mention anything like that, so sounds like a minor accident.

sounds to me like i'd install the timing kit and go.

leak down test is the one thing you can easily do now.
if you can mount a starter to it now (have a spare trans or fab something up) you could compression test it off the car.

#13 jarl

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 11:19 AM

Thank you Gary,

I guess I need to go over the whole thing with a loupe and see if there's any sign of the engine being compromised in the crash. My main concern is with how long the car has been out of circulation. The engine turns fine with a breaker bar, but I'm scared pitting in the wrong place will lead to another spun bearing...

Giving the junkyard the benefit of the doubt, the car probably sat under a tree for those years. When I picked it up It had a some oil on it, but I don't know how much oil it has had for the last few years.

#14 Gloyale

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 01:29 PM

Lower starter bolt insn't an issue on Automatics.

the lower bolt is actually a stud in the case. There is a recessed hole under the starter ear that the engine to trans bolt goes through.

Now on 98+ automatics, the lower starter mount IS one of the 8 bellhousing bolts.

Again though, automatics, the lower starter mount is still just a stud, mounted in the trans case, just like all the older ones.

#15 jarl

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 03:34 PM

That's even better...

Now... I mounted the engine on the stand and turned it on it's side. The bottom-left (driver's side) of this engine is VERY rusty. The oil pan is a goner, and the exhaust studs broken on both sides.... ARGHH!. One of the exhaust ports (#2 cyl) is damp with oil as well (I guess the cylinder filled with oil from being in an awkward position)

Is the 2.5 oil pan compatible with the 2.2 engine? If so, what's the best way of cleaning it to remove every single piece of bearing residue from it?

#16 grossgary

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 05:18 PM

EJ25's are rated at 4.5 quarts and EJ22's at 4.2 or something like that. pans are interchangeable though.

Copy that, that is not the greatest news that it sat a long time.

#17 jarl

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 06:16 PM

Yep... I know...
The main issue with these engines is that in order to check the main bearings you need to take the whole thing apart... or so I think. If I decide to open this thing up, what would I need to buy (gaskets and stuff like that)? It looks like the engine is potentially really good, but it's the unknowns that worry me...

[Edit] let's blame it on the wine I had tonight,but: would it be idiotic on my part to open up the engine to make sure things are fine? I don't expect things to be particularly bad, so I don't think there would be too much machining to do... probably polishing the crankshaft and replacing bearings and maybe rings. What could I expect to find in a 90k engine that has not been run in years?

[Edit 2] Started a new thread specifically for technical questions related with the engine (as opposed to engine swap questions), here

Edited by jarl, 26 June 2011 - 12:49 AM.


#18 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 12:51 AM

I wouldn't worry in the slightest at how long it's sat. I've done a lot of engine swaps and that wouldn't even register on my "Oh $hit" scale. Check for any abnormal thrust play in the crank - if it passes that test and comes with a warrantee and a compression test result - go to town.

Repair as needed - engines come with busted and problematic bits on them all the time - rusty oil pan is par for the course. Replace and move on.

New timing belt, water pump, idlers, cam/crank seals, plugs, wires..... etc - that stuff is par for the course and usually REQUIRED to maintain the warrantee from the "dismantler". I do them every time. The only parts that can't be transfered to the next engine should it be a dud is the cam and crank seals. Those are cheap. Not even worth mentioning.

Drop it in and go. Sounds like a great candidate with low, low mileage. You will be grinning from ear-to-ear when it fires up. :)

GD

#19 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 12:54 AM

And yes - it would be stupendously stupid to open up the engine. If it turns out to be a pile of crap - take it back and get another. I've done it before. That's what warranties are for. If you were going to do that..... I have a company here locally that will 100% rebuild your EJ25D for $1300 and they have one in stock ready to go - you bring your core and you leave with a new engine. They build them like an assembly line almost - lots of demand around my area.

GD

#20 jarl

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 05:21 PM

OK... you convinced me already. I'll start changing parts (I.e. flexplate) as soon as I have the chance.
the main thing preventing me to plug and THEN play are the broken & rusted exhaust bolts... out of the six one is out ok, one is still there ( intact) and the rest are just a rusty mess...

I need to transfer the oil separator and oil pan as well. Next search is going to be for" sealants"...

#21 Redbeard

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 10:08 PM

About 5 years ago, I replaced the EJ25 in my wife's '98 Forester 5spd with an EJ22 from a '97 Impreza auto. It turned out successful, and we have put about 30k miles on it since the swap.

My EJ22 was also in a front-end collision. Yours probably faired better than mine. I didn't know when I got it, but it seems that the crank pulley must've been hit in the accident. I know this now because I can slide the crankshaft about 1/8" front-to-back. I know that's bad, but it has run fine that way for 30k miles.

My EJ22 also sat in a shed unused for almost 6 years. The only problem this caused me was that the 2 fuel injectors closest to the open fuel lines both seized up. I swapped in all 4 injectors from the EJ25, and it runs fine.

The wiring harness on my EJ22 had been hacked up, and I didn't get the ignition coil. I used the coil and engine harness from the EJ25. I had to cut some of the tape on the EJ25 harness to get some of the wires to stretch where they needed to go, but I didn't cut any wires. The coil didn't have the same mounts, so I think I just attached it with a single bolt with some thread lock.

I could easily be wrong about this, but I thought I once heard that the '96 and earlier EJ22s had something different about the number or placement of the bumps that the crank position sensor monitors compared to later engines. So when you change the timing belt, watch out for that. I'm curious to know if this is true or not.

I also had a strange problem with my clutch. I had to fabricate a shorter pushrod to go between my slave cylinder and my clutch fork. I never figured out why that was necessary, but without it my clutch could not fully engage and thus slipped badly.

Edited by Redbeard, 30 June 2011 - 06:14 AM.


#22 jarl

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 10:15 AM

Hello Redbeard,

Thank you for confirming the time the engine has sat unused didn't cause any major harm. The moving of the crankshaft on your car sounds scary, though :) So far the only problem I have seen from the engine sitting that long is a huge large of rust. One of the studs on the side with more rust has been impossible to take out...

I didn't get the ignition coil either... I thought the mounting pattern was the same? I'm planning on using the whole intake manifold of the 2.5, so I hope there won't be that many problems with the harness. I didn't know about the number of bumps on the timing pulley either... can anyone confirm?

#23 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 03:33 PM

2.5 intake doesn't bolt to the 2.2 - can't do that.

Cam/crank pulley's aren't going to matter - they will be compatible.

GD

#24 jarl

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 02:30 AM

Crap... I had misunderstood someone then. Do you know if the connector pinout is the same? Somehow I'm afraid I know the answer :( This also means there are going to be some orphan vacuum lines and/or ports...

The ignition coil isn't compatible either from what I can see. Someone wants to trade? :P

#25 Redbeard

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 08:08 AM

I did a little poking around on the net since my last post, and it looks like what I read about the crank position sensor thing must've been talking about the '99+ EJ22 vs. the earlier ones.

Even if the pinouts are different (and they could be the same, I really don't know), I would think that you could just transfer the wiring from the EJ25 to the EJ22 like I did.

Why would you have orphaned vacuum lines/ports? You should be able to connect everything to the EJ22 that was connected to the EJ25. I remember having to transfer at least one vacuum port from my EJ25 to my EJ22. I think it was for cruise control, and the EJ22 just had a square headed plug in the hole where I needed a hose connector. Legacys used different cruise control than Imprezas/Foresters, but I would still think that you should be able to transfer anything you need from your old engine over to the new one.

As for your coil, if the mounting holes on the EJ25 coil are too far apart to fit on the EJ22 intake, then maybe you could make an adapter plate out of flat sheet steel to accommodate it. That's what I had planned to do, but I never got around to doing it. I think you'll also need spark plug wires for a '97 or '98 EJ22 in order to use your '99 coil.




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