88coupe Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 (edited) Hi, I just recently bought a 95 legacy for less than $500. It has the 2.2, 5-speed, and 229K. The guy i got it from said the head gasket might have went out on him, but i checked the oil for the "milkshake" sludge and i checked the coolant for oil, no bad signs. The car had overheated on him he said and he checked the coolant and there was none. So i was hesitant to buy the car but it runs so nice and after checking for signs of head gasket failure I did buy it. But heres the thing, the temp gauge never goes above half way, the top rad. hose gets hot but the bottom doesnt. I poured water in the rad. and i seen it leaking out of what looked like the thermostat housing, but getting under the car it is leaking ABOVE the thermostat housing. There is a trail of rust on the oil pan where water has been leaking for sometime. So I think its the water pump leaking and has been leaking for a while, thus explaining the rust trail and the reason there was no coolant in it when it had overheated on him. Oh another thing is he said when it was or before it overheated it shot a white smoke from under the hood, he said like rubber smoke. So heres what i thought, that the water pump had been leaking for sometime and the system finally ran out of coolant causing the pump to seize up and the white smoke being the timing belt trying to move a seized water pump until it broke free. Please give me your thoughts and opinions on what i think has happened and also give me some ideas on what to look for. Any help is greatly appreciated Edited June 29, 2011 by 88coupe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Do a standard timing belt/water pump job on it and see how things go. If the thermostat has been removed or gutted that's a typical sign of head gasket failure. The fact that the lower hose is cold is a sure sign of trouble. Subaru's do not mix coolant and oil when the gaskets fail. They pressureize the cooling system with exhuast gasses in nearly 100% of EJ22 and EJ25D HG failures. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Your diagnosis and hypothesis seems correct. I had one like this, but it had a blown GH, discovered after repairing thebelt and WP to make it run. You shound like you are in good shape with just a new WP and timing belt. The rubber gasket on the thermostat mey be shot, it is possible that an old timer may have remvoed it, casing a leak. It could be seized and not opening, and this is tricky to get a subaru to do when adding coolant. I say go on and replace the WP and TB. I suggest taking a goold look at the idlers, and replace them if needed. Take the option of doing the am or crank seal while in there. The crank seal is part of the oil pump housing, and comes with an oil pump seal kit. Do this, and run the motor. If its good then you are fixed. Otherwise, if it need HG, you got your work cut out for you, but only half of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88coupe Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 (edited) What signs should i look for if it is a head gasket failure? The car runs very nicely and drives just the same, im just very worried. Has anyone had experience with "blue devil head gasket sealer"? cuz if it is a head gasket i would think about trying that before tearing the motor apart. Is there a step by step page or video for a timing belt/water pump replacement that anyone knows of? Oh and another thing is I had asked the guy if the check engine light came on when it overheated and he said no. But when test driving it the light came on at a stop. What would make it throw a code under these circumstances? Thermostat failure or water pump failure? It wouldnt know if the head gasket went or block was caracked right? Edited June 29, 2011 by 88coupe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 DO NOT USE head gasket sealer in a bottle. Repair in a bottle will not work on Subaru engines correctly and in any case it's more likely to clog the radiator or heater core. First off - the fact that the lower radiator hose is staying cold and the temp gauge shows lower than half....indicates to me that there's probably no thermostat or a gutted thermostat in place in the water pump. This is often used as a band-aid for bad head gaskets. The timing belt/water pump replacement is very, very simple. Drain/pull the radiator, pull the covers, and replace the belt/idlers/cam+crank seals, and water pump. When you do so - check out the thermostat. If it's gutted or missing - just pull the engine and replace the head gaskets. The check engine light could be on for hundreds of reasons - we aren't mind readers. Buy a code reader and find out why it's on. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88coupe Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 (edited) The temp gause doesnt show lower than half, it shows exactly half. What would it be at for normal operating temp? And wouldnt the lower hose be cold if the water pump wasnt working? Edited June 29, 2011 by 88coupe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainchef Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I recently went through the similar problems in my 92 Legacy wgn. Based on the symptoms you described I suspect your water pump is bad. Before you get too carried away, read your trouble codes to figure out what the car is trying to tell you. Mechanically speaking, you're going to do some fairly routine Subie stuff. Get a new, not reman'd, WP from NAPA or from the Subaru dealer, a "Subaru" thermostat, and a full timing belt and idler pulley kit. I also had a leak from the thermostat housing because of corrosion and pitting. If you discover this as well, buy a new housing from the dealer. When it comes to parts for Subaru engines, don't skimp, buy the good stuff; preferably Subaru brand parts when you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88coupe Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 What are some signs of head gasket failure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Bubbles in the radiator, coolant steam or smell in the exhaust. Poor running condition, or overheats. Milkshake in the oil, when coolant mixes in. If you drain the oil and coolant comes out first. Bubbles in the radiator would be the first clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 What are some signs of head gasket failure? bubbles in the radiator over flow container, when engine is warm and still running. Heater won't put out heat. When engine warmed up, lower radiator hose will be cold. All of this is caused by a bad head gasket. On Subarus, exhaust gas enters the cooling system through the bad head gasket. The hot exhaust gas causes the bubbles in the radiator over flow container. Also, the hot exhaust gas forms a big bubble in the cooling system, so coolant is not circulating through the water pump, so that is why lower hose is cold. Eventually, this causes the motor to over heat. All of the above happens when the car is being driven at speed, particularly under load, like climbing hills. The car will idle at rest all day without over heating. Like others have said, change the timing belt, water pump, and thermostat. You just may get lucky, and find changing these parts fixes your problem. However, my bet is that you have a bad head gasket. Research the "search" feature on this forum to read all about Subaru head gasket problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88coupe Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 (edited) So the bubbles would be popping up in the overflow bottle if the HG has failed? But wouldnt the exhaust gasses escape threw where the coolant is leaking and not show up in the overflow bottle? Edited July 1, 2011 by 88coupe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 The reason for the bubbles is that exhuast is leaking INTO the cooling system. Exhuast gases leak from the pressurized cylinder out into the cooling passages of the block. They then work their way up to the radiator and the excess pressure in the system pushes out through the radiator cap into the overflow bottle. If you have another leak in the cooling system, some or all of the pressure will escape there rather than through the radiator cap. Sounds like the water pump gasket just blew out. Not an uncommon thing to happen, especially if the cooling system has been neglected, or the gasket is oil contaminated. (oil leaking from somewhere above/near the pump) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 (edited) your concern is understandable about the head gasket. and it could be bad. but they don't typically fail on the ej22 unless it has been abused. and the ej22 is very a forgiving engine. if you are doing the work your self and worried about it being a money pit, pull the water pump and look at it. plan on replacing it and the belt. (although the belt is optional if it is still whole.) and then drive the car. if the WP is the cause you should be good. you may also find the ''real'' problem in the process. the draw back to this is that at some point you will have to do the work again to replace the ''other stuff'' that you did not replace. but if you are doing the work yourself it's just another saturday afternoon. and you didn't sink another $200 into a $500 car with an engine with bad head gaskets. EDIT: i have never heard of a head gasket causing a coolant leak and rust spot on the oil pan. but, if it were me, based on my experience and my opinion of the reliability of the ej22 engine, i would buy a timing belt kit, with a water pump, from ''theimpotrexperts'' on ebay for, $125, and replace everything while i had it open. i would also look for oil leaks while it had it open and replace any and all seals if some are leaking. ( i would buy the seals from the local dealer before the job so i would have them just in case, <$50, but i doubt you could return them. but maybe.) there is a good how to on this job: http://lovehorsepower.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48:1995-subaru-legacy-outback-timing-belt-and-water-pump-replacement&catid=10:subaru-legacy&Itemid=64 good luck. and let us know what you decide and how it turns out. folks here will help you through this. Edited July 1, 2011 by johnceggleston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88coupe Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 Ok so heres whats poppin, i pulled off the covers and then the water pump, SEIZED COMPLETELY SOLID! The belt had some "wear" haha, i had seen where it was leaking from the water pump so i got the new pump and the new belt and goin put it all back together in the morning, so ill let ya'll know what the deal is, but im pretty sure its goin be just dandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88coupe Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Ok heres the deal, so i got almost everything back together but i have an issue/question. When i match all the marks up with the motor, im a tooth off with the paint lines on the belt. So i can get the crankshaft(middle) and driver side cam(right) on both motor and belt markings, but when i try to get the pass. side cam(left) to line up I can be one tooth off the motor mark or one tooth off the belt mark. Is that a problem or normal? WHAT SHOULD I DO!? Should i just disregard the belt marks and only go off the motor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 You probably want to use the belt marks.... they are usually correct. Most likely you aren't taking into acount how much slack will be drawn out of the driver's side cam pulley when the tensioner is pushed to the right, locked down, and the pin removed. Generally the passenger side cam and the crank are put directly on the marks, then the drivers side cam is left slightly turned so that when the tensioner is released it is pulled into alignment. Also make sure the arrows on the belt are indicating clockwise rotation of the belt. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88coupe Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Well the DS cam and crank are dead on,both motor and belt markings. The PS cam is the one just a lil off, actually its less than a tooth. I dont think i can make the DS cam a lil off to make space for the tensioner, unless i move the crankshaft and then it would be off. So i think im good, i had found a old postings about the same situation and the guy said that the belt marks are pretty much meaningless and are just an aid. What are your feelings about this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I use a lot of aftermarket belts that don't have marks. The fitment between brands of belts can be quite a bit different and can throw people off that aren't used to all the variations. Basically my rule of thumb is that if I can move any sprocket one tooth and it will be *more* correct than it is - I will. If the distance between the marks on the sprockets and the marks on the belt cover/oil pump is less than the width of one belt tooth - run it. You simply can't get it any closer - half a tooth is not possible as your smallest adjustment is a full belt tooth. If you are within half a tooth on all the marks it's as correct as it's going to be. Also note that the *plastic* belt covers have a certain amount of play in their mounting bolts and they also tend to sag and melt if the engine is overheated. So it's not unusual for them to be slightly off. Put a straightedge on the pulley such that you are lined up between the mark and the center of the cam pulley bolt - if it's straight up and down - it's good. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88coupe Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 Thanx a bunch for ur input and for continuing to reply, much appreciated! So I got it all together and runs good, but it had overheated on my first test run! But I remember reading about the air pocket in cooling system can cause overheating so I went along and tried to "burp" the air out, and after about 20 min it no longer bubbled, so i started it and Wam Bam stayed at half on temp gauge and heater works great, so it all seems good now. Oh but one last thing, the top radiator was swelled like a balloon and I squeezed it and felt something hard at the rad. outlet. At 1st I thought it was a spring in hose cuz some are like that but then I felt that it had moved, so idk wtf it could be maybe some deposit of sorts or maybe the previous owner had tried some radiator stop leak crap and formed a nasty chunk. But I'm sure it didn't come out of the rad. because when I removed the rad. I had ran water threw it multiply times and there was no sediment/deposits. And really haven't been able to catch it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Sounds like you got it under control. Good job. I would definitely check on that blockage you felt and it sounds like it's time to replace the radiator hoses also. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88coupe Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 Yeah thanx for helping out, this web site is a fantastic resouce! Once again thanx for keeping up on my posting, very cool. OREGONIANS ROCK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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