rain_man_rich Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Ok. This swap thing looks pretty cool. Currently, I've got an ea82t and I can hear some strange noises brewing in the turbo area. I see some really great write ups and lots of discussion on this swap. I'm curious though, just how many people do any of you estimate that have actually gone through with this? 20? 50? 100? 200? more? Last question: anybody here start one of these swaps and give up due to complexity? I'm not talking about funds running out or ex-wifes forcing them to sell their project or anything like that. I mean, just plain give up because they coudn't figure it out (assuming they started in the first place). That friggin wiring scares me to death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Presidente Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Running a carb is an option on an EJ22, thats what I'm planning on doing when I swap. I don't trust EFI systems, carbs will run forever with proper maintenance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 I would say the number of EJ swaps is probably approaching well over 100 nation wide. Possibly a lot more. It's getting very common. This weekend there were probably 20 of them just at the West Coast Subaru Show. Hell I even brought one myself in addition to my EJ turbo. The wireing is the biggest issue for most people. There's about 4 or 5 of us that offer services at varying levels to strip wireing harnesses and make them easier to install - but none of us can make them plug-and-play because of all the variations of installations out there. You still have to know how to hookup 12v to the harness safely and properly fused, etc. Complexity makes it harder for people to finish - I would guess that something like 25% of the people that seriously start collecting parts for an EJ swap actually complete it *themselves*. Some of the rest seek assistance by towing it to people like myself, Gloyale, ShawnW, and Numchux who have done many of these. Just an FYI - it's rarely less than $1000 for me to "fix" someone's nightmare that's half f'd up and half incomplete. MPFI is the way to go - there is nothing to be scared of or to "not trust". That's fear talking and a lack of knowledge. Once you go fuel injection and you really understand it and how it works - you will never go back to carbs. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 I did mine back in 06, and I've heard of a lot of them since then, and a number of them before mine. Mine was a "nightmare that's half f'd up and half incomplete" but it ran great as a daily driver/weekend beater for 3 years. I just scrapped the car, and it drove to its doom without a hitch. The swap is on loan to another local who should be putting it in his brat. He's going to clean up the harness before he puts it in his car. I was stripping down the harness, but I blew up the EA82 and needed the car right then, so I stuffed the partially stripped harness under the dash, held the bundle up there with some zip ties, and ran it. The SMJ slipped down in the way of the accelerator pedal 2 years later, chafed, and caught fire. It hiccuped a few times, I pumped the pedal a couple times and it cleared out and ran fine. It wasn't until later I noticed all the charred wires under there. I thought the burning plastic smell was just a leftover whiff from some welding I had done. Whoops. So that's why you shouldn't half rump roast it. I got lucky that I wasn't standing on the side of the road watching it burn, though I'm sure a lot of the other commuters would have enjoyed that. I drove it like I stole it every day, and since it was a beat up lifted station wagon people kept out of my way. Only ran into one other driver that wouldn't concede a merge in 3 years of commuting in stoplight strip mall hell. My next conversion will be using a OBDii 95-99 harness. They're a lot easier to work with because most of the important wires run in the central bundle that comes out above the bellhousing instead of going around through the fender and back. I already have a 96 one pulled and in a box for when I get ambitious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Presidente Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 MPFI is the way to go - there is nothing to be scared of or to "not trust". That's fear talking and a lack of knowledge. Once you go fuel injection and you really understand it and how it works - you will never go back to carbs. GD Its an issue of reliability and ease of field repair to me especially in dirty/abusive enviroments, not fear or lack of knowledge. I have no problem working on an assortment of EFI, mechanical injected and carb'd cars and trucks. I went to EFI and learned where it belongs and where carbs do..Maybe you fear or have lack of knowledge about carbs?! I love fuel injection for DD, but not for anything on the trail or for longrange use. With proper maintenance, carbs are more reliable...fewer parts, a lot less to zero wiring, regulates fuel by using gravity, barometric air pressure and manual fine tuning, and the entire fuel distribution system can be torn down and serviced with a screw driver and a pair of pliers on the trail.. In general, EFI systems have it in every category though, power, mpg's/efficiency, ability to adapt on the fly, lack of maintenance etc. The OP said the wiring freaked him out, so I offered a good option. Carbs aren't for everyone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 I got a 1968 VW with fuel injection that had sat since 78. Put new fuel hoses on it, poured gas in the tank, and put a battery in it and it fired right up. Fuel injection can stand the test of time. My EJ swap saw 2' deep water and mud, ice blocks from bashing through brooks in winter, engine temps so high the gauge was pegged and the engine was loosing power doing snow hillclimbing, dust, filth, vibration, ect. The only problem I ever had with it was the wires getting ripped off the fuel pump by a stick, and that would have happened on a carbed car too. The guy I'm loaning my drivetrain too followed me around some trails with his ea81 brat a couple months ago. We had to build a ductape shield around his distributor because it kept filling up with water and shorting out. I used to have my wagon sunk in water up to the seats (sometimes you had to wait for it to sink to the bottom to grab traction) and it never hiccuped. It's the coolest thing ever lighting up a pond from underneath the water at night, the whole pond glows. So the weatherpack connectors and coilpack ignition work well in wet environments. Fuel injection gives good drivability day in and out, good gas mileage and good power at the same time, and required less dicking with than any other carbed piece of equipment I've owned. The initial setup is more work, but from then on it's a breeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) im just finishing up the EJ swap with an obdII engine and harness from a 2k Outback (ej25, mated to ea82 5spd Dual Range, 92 Loyale finishing up=im driving the car, just have to put it back together) the wiring harness seemed much easier than that of the earlier harnesses (obdI) based on how i read the EA2EJ doc. just find and download the FSM for your year range and study the wiring bulkhead layout, connections, shapes, and label everything you can. i didnt label before i took it out of the car, so it DID take a little longer to get thru the harness, but just taking my time and removing the connectors one at a time until i knew i had left what i needed (pretty much.. the engine side wiring, the obdII connector, and the Main and fuel relay wiring) i left about 3' of wires from the other stuff on the ecu just incase i needed it for someting, IE.. ecu controlled fan relay etc. for the ecu i tied the constant and switched power to the same switch, otherwise the ecu power wasnt getting cut, Tosh on the board gave me that idea. havent seen any adverse problems doin that. this was the first swap i have ever attempted, and the first time i pulled a motor by myself. i did it in my spare time by my self in a bout a month. use the board to search for answers and ask questions, chances are its answered in here somewhere. plus, with the ej25.. i put $12 of gas in @ $3.59/gal. and drove about 105 miles or so. (speedo showed 86, but i have 27" Grabbers on it, about rouhly 18% over sized maybe?) pretty close to 30mpg with 3 bad axles ! my ea82 was consistantly at 20mpg, city or highway or combined Edited August 29, 2011 by xbeerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rain_man_rich Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 Thanks everyone. I got quite a few questions answered by this thread. General Disorder, the next time I'm up near the City of Roses I could stop by and yak with ya a bit. I'd make sure that lunch or dinner would make it worth your while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Its an issue of reliability and ease of field repair to me especially in dirty/abusive enviroments, not fear or lack of knowledge. I have no problem working on an assortment of EFI, mechanical injected and carb'd cars and trucks. I went to EFI and learned where it belongs and where carbs do..Maybe you fear or have lack of knowledge about carbs?! Having built, rebuilt, and tuned many, many carbs including Hitachi's, Q-Jets, etc. And having done a blow-through turbo setup using a Weber DGV.... I would say my knowledge of carbs far exceeds most of the people around here. The OP said the wiring freaked him out, so I offered a good option. Carbs aren't for everyone... Yes - that's true there is less wireing. You have some good points about them being serviceable with fewer tools.... but reliability is not higher with carbs in general. That's part of why the industry went away from them in the first place. There's many examples of OBD-I EJ22's running around with 300k or more having never replaced a single component of the EFI system. Further - the ECU itself is very reliable and capable of ignoring half the sensors in the system and still run well enough to get you home. Of all the problems that EJ's have - the MPFI system just isn't one of them. Out of all the cars I've worked on (many hundreds) I have replaced about a half dozen coolant temp sensors, and like 1 or 2 faulty idle air control's. Pointing out how simple carbs are to repair is hardly germain to the conversation when you are looking at the EJ MPFI system - it simply doesn't fail and almost never *needs* repair. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roostema4328 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 ^+1000. the only way you would probably ever have a problem with an EJ fuel system is if the fuel pump went out. or the computer drowned in deep water. lol and you would have those same problems if you went carbed. plus bad gas mileage, harder starting, possible flooding while wheeling on hills. plus more expense. because if you go carbed with an EJ. you have to buy a carb get it to fit the intake. you still have to do all most all the wiring anyway. because you have to do it to run the EJs ignition system. most the time when you get your used engine it will have the intake with the injectors in it. so ditching all that to go to a junk outdated carb for more expense and work is dumb. in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) I'm going with an EJ22 in my offroader mainly because of the distributor less ignition system on the EJ22.There is nothing mechanical in the system to wear out and fail other than the fuel pump.Everything is all solid state electronics,so it tends to last long.I too have ran a EJ swapped wagon in water that came up to the bottom of the dash(car had a 1" lift and 24" snow tires". as far as wiring goes one trick Ive found that made everything much easier is to cut wires you know you will not be needing out of the harness as you are pulling it.For example the lights,horn,wipers,AC stuff(if you are not running AC), most anything after the A pillars,radio,speakers,instrument cluster,etc. After you get the harness home and have removed all the tape and wiring loom,start removing cut wires one at a time. if a wire goes to a merge of several other wires cut that wire only.If a wire gets traced all the way to the computer don't panic.Instead leave the wire long and wrap it around the computer. many wires end up getting cut that go to computer especially if running with out AC and its a manual.A couple wires will be cut that harness needs for power that go to ECU.A few wires from the instrument cluster that were cut will go to ECU-these will be stuff like the tach or CEL. IIRC 13 wires get cut that go to ECU if manual and AC less. there are two relays in the harness that are needed:a silver circular relay with a green connector(fuel pump relay-one wire to this will get cut that is the output wire to the fuel pump.), and a brown square relay with a brown connector (ignition relay).All other relays can be cut out of the harness. connectors: only the 4 connectors that go to ECU(bright yellow) and the connectors that go to engine are needed in the harness,all other ones can be cut out-with the exception of the SMJ connector,its the MASSIVE connector in the harness near where the fuse box was.Leave that alone until your harness just has engine wires.Then you can carefully cut one wire out of the SMJ and its corresponding wire on the other side of the connector and solder them together.slowly eliminating the SMJ from the harness. sorry for the book,I just wanted to show that harness isn't hard,you just need a good attention to detail. Edited September 4, 2011 by Uberoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 for the ecu i tied the constant and switched power to the same switch, otherwise the ecu power wasnt getting cut, Tosh on the board gave me that idea. havent seen any adverse problems doin that. Your mileage may suffer. The ECU will have to go though it's "learning curve" of ajusting MAF an O2 readings. Something is not right. You've got something backfeeding the Ignition relay when running. I would just install a diode on the IG switched wire. Are you Sure you've got the ALT wired correctly? does your Charge light come on. To the OP. Sorry for the hijack. Hopefully this is still somewhat on topic. Alt wiring is an important and no so commonly discussed aspect of the EJ swap. the wiring isn't really that hard. PM me if you'd like help or even would like to have me strip and label your harness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Gloyale... yeah, charge light comes on, but the other wire on the connector, im not 100% sure on. i've read the EJ swap alternator issue solved thread. but it talks of an alternator with more wires than i have. honestly, the mileage has been great, well, its better than it was with my EA82, so, im happy. LOL. i'll try a diode on the ign wire when i get a chance, i would like to eliminate the fact that both wires need to have the power cut all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Gloyale... yeah, charge light comes on, but the other wire on the connector, im not 100% sure on. i've read the EJ swap alternator issue solved thread. but it talks of an alternator with more wires than i have. Try out this diagram - worked a treat for me and it used the EA's wiring on the EJ alternator Sorry for the hijack, but thought it required to help out xbeerd. OP - does it really matter how many have been done? The simple fact is that it's been done before, there's a load of info out there that will help, but not every conversion is the same! Crazy I know but once you're over the wiring if you're doing it yourself you're more than halfway there... I'm looking forward to my next EJ conversion when it comes along, it'll probably be an OBDII system I reckon. Cheers Bennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r81gsr95 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 how much for one of you pacific northwest guys to put an ej22 in my GL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 how much for one of you pacific northwest guys to put an ej22 in my GL? It will run about $1000 in labor typically. That's assuming you drop off a car, a used engine, an uncut wireing harness, and adaptor plate/drilled flywheel. Then there are parts costs associated with timing belt components, tune up parts, etc. If you want to have someone else put an EJ into your EA rig look for the price tag to be somewhere around the $2000 mark for all the parts and the labor. GD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rain_man_rich Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 OP - does it really matter how many have been done? The simple fact is that it's been done before, there's a load of info out there that will help, but not every conversion is the same! Crazy I know but once you're over the wiring if you're doing it yourself you're more than halfway there... Well, I was trying to assess the number of conversions because I wanted some general idea as to the ratio of successes to failures. The higher the success rate, the more confident one would feel before undertaking a project. To everyone who has commented on this thread: Thank you. This actually seems to be a viable project. Now to set up a budget and find a donor vehicle...nothing acceptable yet, in either venture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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