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Camber question


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12 replies to this topic

#1 Txakura

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 10:02 AM

Does camber affect understeer/oversteer?

#2 nipper

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 09:24 PM

http://www.ozebiz.co...eory/align.html

Everything in a wheel alighnment can cause all sorts of weirdness depending on how much it is out and where.

There are other things that can affect over/under, what issues are you having?

#3 Dirk

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 11:18 PM

Just been reading up on this one myself. Nipper posted a good article. Very informative.

Negative camber is generally accepted for good cornering stabilty on road. / \
This allows for good tyre contact on the outside tyre.

Positive camber \ / allows for light steering in offroad conditions.

Earlier soobs are set up with positive camber. Not sure about later ones.

'Toe In' allows for stable straight line driving.

'Toe Out' can promote over steer on front wheel drive cars.

'Toe Out' is also helpful when you have positive camber. It evens the tire wear. 'Toe In' does the same for negative camber.

The bit that I can't work out is that my Gen1 specs are for positive camber and 'Toe In'.

I'm going to look into the possiblity of longer control arms to change the camber.

#4 Txakura

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 11:44 PM

TY both, reading reading reading. edit *(very good read, thanks for that article)

Post lift my camber is positive, not by much. No real issues yet, but this car was very prone to understeer pre lift.

I like the way it feels off pavement now, but my alignment guy was concerned about it being positive.

Might be time to ask what others with 4" lift in an ea82 use for alignment goals.

Edited by Txakura, 30 August 2011 - 11:51 PM.


#5 nipper

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 11:56 PM

Might be time to ask what others with 4" lift in an ea82 use for alignment goals.



Always better to ask then re-invent the wheel(s).

With lifts and mods things that look good on paper will not always work in real life. Sometimes lifts are so extreeme (juust an fyi) that you have to compromise and sometimes never quite hit the spec

Alignment along with suspension is a giant tradeoff unless you spend big bucks to get everything you wish.

Toe out on turns is a non adjustable geometry unless you have a tourch or a really big hammer.

Some more reading

http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

#6 Txakura

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 12:19 AM

Always better to ask then re-invent the wheel(s).

With lifts and mods things that look good on paper will not always work in real life. Sometimes ~ you have to compromise and sometimes never quite hit the spec

http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm


roger, didn't expect to hit factory spec, trying to understand why, when the car feels better than ever on the gravel county roads I need everyday, positive (static) camber (+1.4 and +1.7) are an issue

he'd like to see me re-work it closer to zero

#7 nipper

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:41 PM

ALso realize the specs are compromises ... what you have now may work very well for your lift if the tires dont wear oddly. Different calibrations work best for different surfaces.

#8 Numbchux

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:08 PM

Post lift my camber is positive, not by much


it was pre-lift too. Factory alignment specs are positive camber in the front.


also, camber is not adjustable.


EA-series understeer is mostly caused by geometry of the rear end. It actually flexes very well, and in a corner, the front travels less than the rear, and therefore the front gets less grip. really, the only way to combat it, is adding a rear sway bar, which reduces the rear travel, and neutralizes the grip front to rear.

#9 El Presidente

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 11:04 PM

X2, Factory spec is positive.

When I lifted my GL, I thought I'd adjust the camber and castor angle. I cut my lifts blocks at 18 degrees instead of 17 to bring the strut tops in to decrease camber. It worked great! at 6" of lift the front tires sit just a tiny bit negative and it really helps in the corners especially with no sway bar. I adjusted the castor angle by extending my radius rods 1.25". It helps high speed road manners and makes it center real nice, it also helps me clear my 30" mudders. I run my toe slightly out, because like most FWD cars, the bushings in the radius rods compress slightly when the front wheels get power bringing the toe back in.

Might want to consider a new alignment guy. I do all my own alignment work and its not hard. It just takes a little addition, subtraction and patience. You need a smooth floor or concrete slab to get it right too. My GL rides better lifted than it did at stock height on stock wheels!

#10 nipper

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 11:33 PM

X2, Factory spec is positive.

When I lifted my GL, I thought I'd adjust the camber and castor angle. I cut my lifts blocks at 18 degrees instead of 17 to bring the strut tops in to decrease camber. It worked great! at 6" of lift the front tires sit just a tiny bit negative and it really helps in the corners especially with no sway bar. I adjusted the castor angle by extending my radius rods 1.25". It helps high speed road manners and makes it center real nice, it also helps me clear my 30" mudders. I run my toe slightly out, because like most FWD cars, the bushings in the radius rods compress slightly when the front wheels get power bringing the toe back in.

Might want to consider a new alignment guy. I do all my own alignment work and its not hard. It just takes a little addition, subtraction and patience. You need a smooth floor or concrete slab to get it right too. My GL rides better lifted than it did at stock height on stock wheels!


Yup, just takes some time to do it at home, just like you can balance your own wheels.

#11 Caboobaroo

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 11:53 AM

They run + 1.67 degrees of camber in the front from the factory and -0.30 total toe. Rear is supposed to be 0 degrees of camber and 0 total toe, with a thrust angle of 0 degrees.


I have aligned more EA81s and EA82s then most people that actually do alignments. I have a 5-lug conversion on my RX and I made custom alignment specs for it which I'm also going to be running on my XT6 once I get the rest of the EJ front suspension swapped in.

#12 Twitch de la Brat

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 02:25 AM

I know, second thread about camber and castor I've posted in.
Just looking for a little clarification.
Positive camber is stock, makes them better on dirt and offroad.
Has anyone noticed any differences with flattened out camber while driving on stock wheels?
Also, if my mental picture is correct, positive castor (strut top ahead of the axle) makes the suspension apply more positive camber as you turn and negative castor (strut top behind axle) gives you flat to negative camber in corners, right?
So with a lengthened radius rod and camber adjustment/1" lift plate on an 85 BRAT, it should flatten the suspension out in the corners and stop eating my tires from the outside in, correct?
And this shouldn't have too negative an impact on my ability to drive like a madman on dirt, right?

Twitch

Edited by Twitch de la Brat, 02 September 2012 - 02:27 AM.
Inside out, outside in, whatever.


#13 presslab

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:27 AM

I'm not sure why the EAs have such front positive camber from the factory. I'd guess it's because the early cars didn't have power steering, and positive camber reduces steering effort. I can't see why positive camber would be better off-road, specifically; I'd say zero static camber would be ideal to maximize straight line traction. For street use, negative static camber can counteract the tire's tendency to roll under on hard cornering, and to compensate for the lack of negative camber on body roll.

The lack of caster I can easily understand, as too much caster can cause torque steer on an AWD vehicle. Positive caster will give more negative camber as the wheel is turned; this is what is desired for performance handling. More positive caster will also increase steering effort.

A good (although dated) reference book that I have is here:
http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/0912656468




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