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97-98 Legacy Intake Mani on 90-94 Heads


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32 replies to this topic

#1 96LegacyEJ22

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 11:14 PM

Do the 97-98 Intake manifolds bolt onto the 90-94 EJ22 heads? My friends 92 LS intake manifold is always so warm.

I have read that the 97-98 IM flows better then the earlier years. Such as my 96. I was going to put Grimmspeed Phenolic spacers on her car. And while I was in the might as well give the IM a little more flow with a newer one.

#2 smackvt

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 11:34 PM

yes ej22 89-99....... not sure abou the flow thing

#3 96LegacyEJ22

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 01:45 AM

What about sensors and all that? The 92 has no EGR. So I would assume I need a Manual IM.

#4 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 04:09 AM

Huge waste of effort. There's little to no gain to be had by swapping manifolds and adding phenolic spacers to a plain EJ22 manifold..... to what end? Love it for what it is - reliable and slow.

If you want performance and are willing to do that much work for almost nothing - why not do a frankenmotor for a *little* more work and get about 60 HP out of the deal? Then you can do your spacers and newer intake, etc. :rolleyes:

GD

#5 96LegacyEJ22

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 01:20 PM

The way I look at it is. Why take the two ************tiest parts of the motors and put them together for a giant ************ty motor?

Yea you gain more power from the compression. But the 2.5 bottom end sucks and the 2.2 heads suck just as bad.

If anything I will go with a full on 2.5. Figured hell, why not make the 2.2 a little more torquey. But everyone is advising against everything with them.

I suppose I will stick to the Hybrid intake and Exhaust. Until I move on to something bigger and better.

#6 roostema4328

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 03:30 PM

^sorry but nothing about this post makes any since.

There is nothing wrong with a 2.5bottom end. and there is nothing wrong with 2.2 heads. WTF. there are of course different reasons for choosing one over the other but neither are junk.

putting spacers on an intake on a completely stock N/A engine. will do NOTHING. but cost you money. and may make the intake hit the hood.

#7 96LegacyEJ22

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 05:20 PM

EJ25's like to spin rod bearings. I drive hard. EJ22 heads are the WORST flowing heads Subaru ever made. NO top end power. The EJ25 heads on the other hand are much better for top end too.

Anyways. So cooling the Intake air won't do a single thing?

#8 bratman18

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 06:26 PM

^Lol. I think you have some learning to do, or maybe just more experience.

#9 96LegacyEJ22

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 07:44 PM

Well I am here to be enlightend. Cobb even had a flow bench that paired the EJ22 heads to other USDM heads. SO that is how I am basing my information.

I am going to just go with a 2.5 and cams. WHICH will beat a 2.5/2.2 build with cams. I have seen dynos on SL-I.net with Frakenmotor builds. They don't flow up top. Although the guys I have talked to claim it is a fun build and the gains are worth it. I am just looking at what my options are here. Or if I should get a 2.5 and cam it and move on.

I have even talked to Rallitek and PRE about my original build of the 2.2. Which included a throttle body spacer, LW Pulley, IM spacers, Cams, full header back and an Intake. They claimed that the limiting factor is the heads in the engine and even port and polish won't give that many gains. An expensive port and polish on the 2.2 heads will barely come close to the stock 2.5 heads. This is what I have heard from Delta Cams AND Cobb. Not trying to come off as an rump roast. But I have been around for a few years with these cars and have done quite a bit of research. Cars are not cheap and I didn't want to dump money to the 2.2 if it wasn't gonna be much faster with the mods I had planned.

Maybe I do need to learn a little more. What WHP and WTQ numbers are the frakenmotors doing?

I already know the 2.2 is bulletproof.

Edited by 96LegacyEJ22, 07 September 2011 - 08:16 PM.


#10 roostema4328

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 10:58 PM

you say that 2.5 bottom ends are junk because they spin rod bearings. and then right after that you say you should just go with a whole 2.5 . you still dont really make any sense. It is hard to answer your questions when you just make a bunch of bs statements that contradict each other. lol

btw. I do not believe that 2.5 bottom ends just spin rod bearings. The instances you are talking about are probably someone ranting after they abused the ************ out of their engine. or neglected it severely. like running it low on oil or not doing oil changes enough. any engine will have problems like that when not maintained or used properly.

#11 96LegacyEJ22

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 12:04 AM

Because you are taking things out of context. Nothing new with the education system these days.

Basically implying that from what I have heard from a few people. Is that what is the point of taking the two worst parts of each engine and combing them. This is why I was a little offset on what choice to make. Based on hearsay. So I was asking what are people making with the Frakenmotor. And what mods they are using. I have heard good and bad results. The bad results are probably from someone not doing it right.

I am just throwing questions around. If you had to choose, what would you do?

#12 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 12:16 AM

2.5 bottom ends are just fine. It's the lack of proper maintenance (oil changes) and unwillingness to accept head gasket failure that claims them - and that's only the 25D that has this issue really. Most of them don't fail untill well over 250k miles. I have personally torn down 25D's with excellent maintenance histories including three sets of head gaskets and 265k miles to find the bearings in good condition.

As for the frankenmotor - you don't speak from experience so you don't know what you are talking about. Power over 5.5k RPM is WAY over-rated and mostly useless. Coupled with a close-ratio transmission you don't need to rev past that - you should be shifting anyway.

If you don't like it (having never tried it) then don't build one - go ahead and build a 2.5 instead. You'll spend 10x as much money and you'll have a very powerful 2.5 I'm sure - but nothing that my 2.2 Turbo can't run circles around.....

You see - we have done the math here - you can't do better than the frankenmotor for HP-per-$. If you want to spend big money on your engine then you are entering the realm of turbo-charging and you would be silly to leave all that extra power on the table. Building an expensive non-turbo is silly and pointless when you can just build an expensive turbo instead and have twice as much fun and plenty of reliability.

If your goal is cheap, reliable, non-turbo power - the Frankenmotor is the ONLY option.

GD

#13 96LegacyEJ22

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 01:08 AM

Okay so did a little more research. And you pretty much nailed what I was looking for.

I am looking at around $750-800 to do this build. My question is what head gasket to get? I know cosmetic is where to get them from.

I will have Delta Cams regrind some 2.2 cams for me. Here's the sad thing I have the automatic. 4.11 gears. It has been maintained with Amsoil ATF.

Also what would you say your cars 0-60 time is with the Frakenmotor. Ever ran it in the 1/4th?

Thanks

#14 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 06:32 AM

Okay so did a little more research. And you pretty much nailed what I was looking for.

I am looking at around $750-800 to do this build. My question is what head gasket to get? I know cosmetic is where to get them from.


Cometic is crap - they leak like 1-ply toilet paper. You want the EJ25D updated MLS gasket from Subaru if you are using the EJ25D block (have to use this one actually for purely mechanical reasons or the pistons will hit the head).

I will have Delta Cams regrind some 2.2 cams for me. Here's the sad thing I have the automatic. 4.11 gears. It has been maintained with Amsoil ATF.


Highly reccomend the RV torque grind. Complements the low-RPM power of the Frankenmotor very well.

Amsoil is crap and synthetic ATF is uneccesary. ATF by it's very nature stays clean and useable for tens of thousands of miles and a simple drain/fill every 30k with cheap ATF and proper tire sizes will keep them perfectly happy for their usable lifespan - which is about 500k when maintained.

Also what would you say your cars 0-60 time is with the Frakenmotor. Ever ran it in the 1/4th?


I have no clue - it's a Brat that weighs 2200 lbs with a close-ratio JDM STi 5MT and front/rear LSD's..... it's very quick.

GD

#15 96LegacyEJ22

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 11:58 AM

Cometic is crap - they leak like 1-ply toilet paper. You want the EJ25D updated MLS gasket from Subaru if you are using the EJ25D block (have to use this one actually for purely mechanical reasons or the pistons will hit the head).



Highly reccomend the RV torque grind. Complements the low-RPM power of the Frankenmotor very well.

Amsoil is crap and synthetic ATF is uneccesary. ATF by it's very nature stays clean and useable for tens of thousands of miles and a simple drain/fill every 30k with cheap ATF and proper tire sizes will keep them perfectly happy for their usable lifespan - which is about 500k when maintained.



I have no clue - it's a Brat that weighs 2200 lbs with a close-ratio JDM STi 5MT and front/rear LSD's..... it's very quick.

GD


So using the OEM EJ25D Headgaskets won't have any problems with cooling passages on the heads? Thats why I thought people used the Cosmetic Special Order gaskets.

And sorry for my ignorance. "RV Torque Grind"? Since my 96 heads are mashed up year I have Roller Rockers and HLA's in my 2.2 heads. So I was told by Delta that I have to use the 200 grind.

#16 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 12:15 PM

So using the OEM EJ25D Headgaskets won't have any problems with cooling passages on the heads? Thats why I thought people used the Cosmetic Special Order gaskets.


Nope. No problems at all. Just run it.

And sorry for my ignorance. "RV Torque Grind"? Since my 96 heads are mashed up year I have Roller Rockers and HLA's in my 2.2 heads. So I was told by Delta that I have to use the 200 grind.


You can replace the rocker assemblies with normal 90 to 94 HLA's or you can use the later solid-lifter RR units from '97/'98..... I really don't see why you can't use the RR HLA rockers.....

AFAIK you can use any rocker assembly with any cam grind on the gen-1 heads. I'll confirm that with my "source" at Delta though.

GD

#17 96LegacyEJ22

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 12:33 PM

I would have to read up on the conversion of swapping the rockers. I like the HLA's because I don't have to mess with them. They told me the 200 grind is a torque grind.

#18 renob123

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 01:15 PM

Cometic is crap - they leak like 1-ply toilet paper. You want the EJ25D updated MLS gasket from Subaru if you are using the EJ25D block (have to use this one actually for purely mechanical reasons or the pistons will hit the head).
GD


For those keeping score at home, for a routine head gasket job, GD is probably right (as he usually is). However, Cometic does make a special Frankenmotor MLS gasket that people have been running with minimal issues so far.

Jacob

#19 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 02:19 PM

For those keeping score at home, for a routine head gasket job, GD is probably right (as he usually is). However, Cometic does make a special Frankenmotor MLS gasket that people have been running with minimal issues so far.

Jacob


It should be noted that depending on which 2.5 block you are using - you may wish to select different HG's based on thickness to raise or lower the compression ratio. With the EJ25D you have no choice as the pistons crest above the block surface at TDC thus you have to use a gasket that's "thick" to compensate for this. Careful consideration of block and HG choice is very important.

Cometic doesn't have that great of a reputation.... and I have heard of few problems with the updated OEM Subaru gaskets. For some combination perhaps Cometic has a thickness that Subaru does not but for the EJ25D at least - OEM is the way to go.

GD

#20 95legwagon

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 06:40 PM

EJ25's like to spin rod bearings. I drive hard. EJ22 heads are the WORST flowing heads Subaru ever made. NO top end power. The EJ25 heads on the other hand are much better for top end too.

Anyways. So cooling the Intake air won't do a single thing?



so yea i have the ej22 in a 95 legacy wagon...... it has like NO bottom end but all kinds of top end...... the ej22 was the best fuel injected engine they made........things a die hard! lol you can beat the piss outta these engines and they still keep kickn..... the 2.5 is bad for headgaskets and its an interference engine.....if u break a timing belt say byby to valves......the 2.2 doesnt bend valves....just slap on a new belt, set timing and your ready to go. now the 2.5 block is more boost friendly than the 2.2 (some people say) some say the 2.2 block is better...... i personally wouldnt go that route with a stock block. im happy with my ej22.....just seriously hate the 4eat! so slow! a 5 speed makes it a little peppier.......just my 2 cents :)

oh and the best you can do for cooling intake air is a cold air intake....i was told that just removing the resonator bottle and adding a cold air intake i added 17 hp. i did notice a big difference in throttle response and 0-60 time.

-jarrid-

Edited by 95legwagon, 08 September 2011 - 06:45 PM.


#21 96LegacyEJ22

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 11:39 PM

So the OEM EJ25D gasket is thick enough so it doesnt hit the valves? What kind of compression will it give? 11:x:x or 12:x:x.

#22 roostema4328

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 12:36 AM

I have actually used the MLS felpro head gaskets a few times and they seem good too.

#23 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 04:02 PM

If you are asking weather the frankenmotor is an interferance engine - it almost certainly is, yes. The thicker head gasket is because the piston will hit the HEAD surface not because it will prevent it from hitting the valves if the timing belt should break.

Interferance vs. non-interferance is a silly discussion. If changed on time and attention is given to the water pump and idlers the chances of a timing belt breaking are almost non-existant. EJ timing belts are VERY strong. I have changed literally over 100 timing belts and to this day I have not seen a single one come in broken. I've seen seized water pumps, cogged idlers, and other nasty tricks but not one broken timing belt. At this point it's just not a reasonable argument against the interferance engines.

The compression ratio of the EJ25D/EJ22E Heads/EJ25D gasket is 10.5:1

The compression ratio of the EJ251(3)/EJ22E Heads/EJ251 gasket is 11.4:1

The compression ration of the EJ251(3)/EJ22E Heads/EJ25D gasket is 10.4:1

25D's are the most common EJ25's right now that are availible used - and the 10.5:1 ratio is slightly better than a 251 w/25D gaskets.... and there has been some reliability problems reported with the 11.3(4):1 combinations so we have stayed away from that one..... though I can imagine it really tears it up before it blows!

And to the guy that says a CAI is worth 17 HP - you are most definitely mistaken. In fact the stock intakle IS A CAI and is not a significant restriction. You get more noise with your cone filter setup and your brain tells you it's faster because you really want to beleive it is. It is very likely slower due to being a warm air intake from the engine bay instead of a CAI from the wheel well.

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 09 September 2011 - 04:15 PM.


#24 roostema4328

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 04:20 PM

they should call those HAIs ha ha. just a scam.

#25 96LegacyEJ22

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 11:23 PM

I would be using a 97-99 EJ25D Block. I thought EJ251's are the SOHC motors.

Any ratio numbers for the DOHC 2.5?

Also what kind of CHP do you think it'd be putting out? Full headerback, Intake, MSD Coil and cams.

Edited by 96LegacyEJ22, 10 September 2011 - 02:15 AM.





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