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EA-82TT Engine Management Swap


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161 replies to this topic

#1 Quidam

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 02:49 AM

Basic idea is to use Genuine Subaru wiring, sensors, ecu, etc on a EA-82TT. Tuneible with a laptop open source.

Distributorless, coil near plug.

I need to start sourcing parts with prices. 9.5 compression on E85 possibly.

What donor car would you source all the parts from? What do you think. Feedback on the swap needed.

Sincerely,

Doug

#2 Rossi86

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:13 AM

Is the EA82TT still using it's turbo? 9.5:1 is high for an older turbo charged engine, normally people lower to compression and increase boost. If you run your own ignition, and timed port injection system, it might hold. You should use larger head studs if you plan to run it much over 6 psi for a great amount of time, (more than a few seconds). 12 psi @ 9.5 makes a EA82T at 90 hp go to 219hp tripling the pressure in the combustion chamber.

To ansuwer your question, an STI would have the best control system. Thats what you should use, cost more than a used RS, but thats what you need. Their is a post about Stand alone ECM's in an XT it would help you a lot.

#3 Quidam

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 10:30 AM

Is the EA82TT still using it's turbo? 9.5:1 is high for an older turbo charged engine, normally people lower to compression and increase boost. If you run your own ignition, and timed port injection system, it might hold. You should use larger head studs if you plan to run it much over 6 psi for a great amount of time, (more than a few seconds). 12 psi @ 9.5 makes a EA82T at 90 hp go to 219hp tripling the pressure in the combustion chamber.

To ansuwer your question, an STI would have the best control system. Thats what you should use, cost more than a used RS, but thats what you need. Their is a post about Stand alone ECM's in an XT it would help you a lot.


Hi. I could use an original for the primary turbo. Nothing has been final assembled. Or set in stone. I'm going to put a solid rebuilt block under it initially. Copper coat on the headgaskets with a decked block and heads. Block #2 would be drilled and tapped for larger head studs.

The Subie guys have found out that ethanal, higher compression, and the right tune will work. I ordered a valve spring compresser as my two finger one doesn't get the job done without drama. Then I check piston to valve and get some cams done.

My goal is 400 hp at the crank.

My initial thought was the early EJ-20 stuff might fill the bill. Forged pistons in block #2 for when I crank the boost to hit the numbers. Street/Dragstrip in a 2400 pound car.

A mock-up for measurement and fit to the car.
http://www.ultimates...&pictureid=3299


Doug

Edited by Quidam, 15 October 2011 - 10:56 AM.


#4 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 12:01 PM

You have a lot of ambition I'll give you that.

First - you are going to have a lot of trouble hitting 400 HP on the EA82T's heads. They simply will not flow enough to get you there. For comparison - take the EJ22E heads. Also used on the EJ22T - these heads are well known to top out at 300 HP on a 2.2 running about 25 psi of boost - they have dual intake and exhaust ports and they have 4 valves per cylinder.... All the porting and polishing and larger valves and advanced valve timing in the world will not make them flow enough to get anywhere near 400 HP. For that you need some version of the DOHC heads on the EJ's. I doubt the EA82T heads are capable of flowing much more than 250 HP.

Next - you will need forged pistons. The stock one's have problems with collapsed ring lands at much lower power levels than you are shooting for.

To get over 200 HP reliably - o-ring the block, head studs for greater clamping force, forged pistons at 8:1, and run a nice big turbo and some decent engine management. I've told people this many times but no one wants to fork out the money to do it right - especially when EJ's are super cheap and reliable. I can buy an EJ257 short block for about $600 though a friend - 300 HP from the factory, 400 with some minor mods.

What exactly is your motivation for building this?

GD

#5 Quidam

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:21 PM

http://www.ultimates...&pictureid=3300

Thought I better show and tell you what I have to start. This is a standard size "B" block/case. B pistons. I could use either. Nitrated Napier second ring set on the SPFI piston. Genuine Subaru on the Turbo piston. Japanese tri metal mains, polished w/800 grit worn paper. ACL rod bearings. 400 finish on the bore. I've got this set to check piston to valve clearance. I ordered Jegs cam bushings, two sets at $20.25 shipped. I'll need to have these installed when I check piston to valve clearance. Manual variable valve timing, sort of. Ring side clearance excellent on both and either set of rings fit either set of pistons. BTW, I've got .001.5 side clearance on the second ring. I put the combo in the freezer and it shrank to .0005. anyway

New valve springs, oil pump...I gained some compression with the deck, lost some with the combustion chamber work and head shave. Low mileage stainless valves.


I've got more blocks and part. I've done three heads as far as porting and any others I do will be a piece of cake compared to what I've done, learning.

http://www.ultimates...8717763&thumb=1

Rods are quality forged steel I beam. I've have to sort through a few sets of SBC rods to get a good set for something like this. This one was practice/junker. Best to start with a low mileage set, which I have. Next set resized, rebushed, (which I have) shot peened and polished...

That's it for now.

Doug

Edited by Quidam, 15 October 2011 - 05:35 PM.


#6 Turbone

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 02:53 PM

Wiseco has the blueprints for forged pistons in a ER27, which are the same as the EA82. I suggest looking into this as the ring landings on any of the EA pistons are very weak, I've blown them a few times :rolleyes:

#7 Quidam

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 05:12 PM

Wiseco has the blueprints for forged pistons in a ER27, which are the same as the EA82. I suggest looking into this as the ring landings on any of the EA pistons are very weak, I've blown them a few times :rolleyes:


Yea, only off the shelf pistons I know of for it. IIRC it will cost $450.00? ish. Motor #2.

Yea I saw what you did:) Cast pistons, even quality, which these are, can only take so much.

High boost without proper management, lean out, detonation will trash any of them tho. I know of a 600 whp Subie still laying that down with E-85 and cast pistons. He's a tuner.

Doug

#8 Quidam

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 10:16 PM

Primary turbo will be the VF on the first go around. I've got two like new.

FYI. Standard procedure on this motor has been casting flash removal, deburred. Oil passages and every passage in the block I matchd with the head gasket. A lot of easy cleanup and improvement for the cooling there. Cam case towers...sharp edges removed, trued up flat surfaces. You get the idea.

What I'm trying to figure out right now is what size O-ring cord to use to seal the cam cases. I've read where someone used 5mm. IIRC the slot is about 2mm depth and width...I'm going to use Viton when I figure out what size I want.

All the cam tower bolts replaced with studs. It means pulling to motor to pull the cam towers I believe. Unless I unscrew the studs.

Doug

http://www.ebay.com/...984.m1438.l2649

Edited by Quidam, 16 October 2011 - 10:27 PM.


#9 Quidam

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 11:28 PM

True story in my neighborhood this past year. And it's common if you look all over the internet boards with old turbo cars.

Young person, (that would be Wendall), goes through several Hondas working, modifying...some good looking stuff actually.

He gets this motor and installs it with a Garrett something. Worked for a few months on it, dollars I don't know about.

He drove it 11 miles. It was done.

Doug

#10 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 01:15 AM

I do all the EA82 cam towers with Loctite 518/Permatex Anaerobic. Never had one leak yet. Easy clean-up when you remove one. Don't have to worry about o-ring cord trying to pop out of the tight curved areas..... I tried that years ago and it was a lot more trouble than it was worth. Don't use Viton - if you use anything use Silicone as it's more flexible and has better heat range.

GD

#11 Quidam

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 07:37 PM

http://www.ultimates...&pictureid=3316
This is a junk cam carrier. I surfaced two for the motor, sets more crush on the oil passage O-ring and a better seal for the other oil passages. Will refinish the 0-ring seat. because it needs it. Old rings get pushed inwards from one spot, from what I've saw. Just do it. If it's aluminum, it ain't straight.

http://www.ultimates...&pictureid=3315

This is a new Fel Pro Mickey. I wouldn't want to ever use one on a oil pump by choice. They don't fit right. I modified that pin punch and scraped a radius on the bottom of the squarish slot. Fits pretty good. This seal needs to equal the fit of a Genuine Subaru oil pump seal.

These cam cases usually only leak on the bottom. This one, the original red silicone was destroyed from heat and time. But only there. While we're on the subject.

Doug

#12 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 07:54 PM

If the o-ring fits into the groove with interferance like that it will not crush properly. O-rings need room to spread out when they crush. If they don't have it they WILL create a gap that can break bolts and shatter parts if you try to continue compressing them. The fact that the groove holds the o-ring in place is actually a bad sign - the groove is too narrow.

I know a thing or two about o-rings. I've been certified by Parker for one thing.

Anaerobic flange sealant is FAR superior here. It's designed for exactly this type of job. Close fitting machined flanges - especially aluminium. If you really want an awesome seal - fill in the groove with aluminium epoxy and resurface the whole thing completely flat.

And "while we are on the subject" - Red silicone is not OEM. The OEM is a Three-Bond product and is slightly off-white when new and often is a darker grey when aged. If they had Red RTV on them it was resealed at some point. Had they used anaerobic it would not have leaked.... ever.

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 19 October 2011 - 12:18 AM.


#13 Quidam

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 08:26 PM

FYI, and what I have on hand. 1989 DR 5 speed. New fenders, 1986 hood without the windshield sprayers, all the GL-10 stuff for the doors...

http://www.ultimates...&pictureid=3102

Low mileage stuff on hand. Turbo Traction Wagon 5 speed with diff lock and 3.7 gears that I should be able to pull:) A "mostly" complete 5 lug from Pennsylvania where XT6 goes to die.

Manual steering rack, AC was gone long ago to never return.

Doug

#14 rpholz

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 08:59 PM

A "mostly" complete 5 lug from Pennsylvania where XT6 goes to die.

Doug


it's true.

#15 987687

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 08:17 AM

Don't take offense... but just wondering.
Why don't you pick up a crashed 2.0 wrx for $1500 or something and just swap the entire drivetrain over?
You'll get a stronger AWD transmission, rear LSD, all the engine management which is already OS tunable. The engine has a lot more potential, the heads flow better, respond better to porting/polishing, more after market parts/support.

Sure those motors are known for rod bearing issues, but you seem to know what you're doing with suby motors. They're not that expensive to rebuild if you do it all yourself.

#16 Quidam

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 11:07 AM

No offense taken but I'm not going to waste my time talking EJ motor.

Doug

#17 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 12:00 PM

No offense taken but I'm not going to waste my time talking EJ motor.

Doug


You'll change your tune. They all do eventually. Even the stubborn and the old. For some it takes a number of years - Turbone ran an EA82T (well - actually like a dozen of them :-p) for half a decade till he finally got tired of breaking things and throwing away assloads of money on trying to make a tractor engine into a hi-po race motor. You just can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Granted - you have some skills. But you don't listen well and you don't have a proper grasp of the engine management required. You are spending inordinate amounts of time on stuff that just doesn't matter and will not get you to your goal. Stop messing with cam-tower o-ring cord, and adjustable cam sprockets and get the thing built so you can blow it up and we can stop hearing about it! :Flame:

GD

#18 Quidam

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 09:32 PM

I didn't read GD and will not. I don't want anyone even posting that hates my car.

Doug

#19 987687

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 09:37 PM

I'm sorry! I didn't want to come across as hating your car. All custom projects deserve respect. If I hate something I just won't post. I was merely trying to ask why you'd gone this route over a different one, hence, showing my interest.
I'll watch from afar, cheers.

#20 Quidam

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 09:54 PM

I'm sorry! I didn't want to come across as hating your car. All custom projects deserve respect. If I hate something I just won't post. I was merely trying to ask why you'd gone this route over a different one, hence, showing my interest.
I'll watch from afar, cheers.


Hey,

I wasn't talking about you. Apology not accepted becauase none required. GD, anyone who has a personal vendeta against this engine, cheerleaders.

Doug

#21 Quidam

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 09:59 PM

I'll take some pictures tomorrow. Degree wheel doesn't fit without some mods. I'll throw the timing belts on it tomorrow. Oil pump has to be in for all that.

Camshafts. I've got two sets stock Turbo. Options? Delta, a little more duration from what I understand. I can get more lift with solid lash adjusters.

Doug

#22 rpholz

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 10:32 PM

I personally am greatly interested in this build and wish you luck. I'd offer advise but anything ea82T related I just ask WJM as it's much more fun to talk face to face with someone.. and catch rides in their WRX:clap:


on the adjustable cams however, would it of just been easier to slot the holes rather than using the cam inserts?

#23 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 10:35 PM

I have no "personal" feelings one way or the other about your engine. I don't "hate" anything that's an inanimate object. Hell - I just built an SPFI EA82 for a board member. It's a machine that does a job. If another machine that does the job better can be procured for less $$ - that's a better machine and a better deal.

I have worked on EA's and EJ's and I know what works with them and what doesn't. It's that simple. It's an equation to me - nothing more. You put in $X and you get Y HP and Z reliability factor. The EA82T equation is less cost-effective than the EJ22/25 equation per HP. Simple as that.

And if you can't understand a simple cost analysis or you assign some kind of sense of attachement or "feelings" to your engine build - you have already lost me. I don't understand that level of thinking - that is the same type of mentality that my woman uses for buying shoes. I have no use for it.

GD

#24 Quidam

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 06:10 PM

U G L Y YOU ain't got no alibi, you're UGLY.

http://www.ultimates...&pictureid=3335



http://www.ultimates...&pictureid=3334



http://www.ultimates...&pictureid=3333



http://www.ultimates...&pictureid=3338



http://www.ultimates...&pictureid=3337



http://www.ultimates...&pictureid=3336



Sincerely,

Love Doug

http://www.ultimates...&pictureid=3339


http://www.ultimates...&pictureid=3340

Edited by Quidam, 22 October 2011 - 09:57 PM.


#25 Quidam

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 07:54 PM

I personally am greatly interested in this build and wish you luck. I'd offer advise but anything ea82T related I just ask WJM as it's much more fun to talk face to face with someone.. and catch rides in their WRX:clap:


on the adjustable cams however, would it of just been easier to slot the holes rather than using the cam inserts?


Hey,

I just did a set of "orange" sprockets. My next will be red anodized. I can think of a few ways to do these. The way I did it, my stuff ain't "moving" anywhere.

I wanted to ask WJM a question this afternoon, seeing how he would be one who knows the answer.

I don't need to know everything, I just need to know where to find the answers.

I could ask GD or or a neighbor woman. Those two know everything.

Doug

Edited by Quidam, 22 October 2011 - 09:55 PM.





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