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Guest Message by DevFuse
 

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Diagnosis? My engine is a paradox in the space time continuum.


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32 replies to this topic

#1 cal_look_zero

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 09:24 PM

This is more of a game show trivia question than a "help" question.

My Loyale uses a lot of oil. No obvious loss of power nor unusual noises (not even TOD) and I get about 5mm below the 45psi mark on my oil pressure gauge during normal driving. Currently running a Bosch oil filter, and standard Rotella 15w40 oil.

These are the symptoms/tests/solutions I've gone through thus far.

Symptoms: Uses approximately 1 quart of oil per week/400 miles. Light oil burning smell after commute (~30 miles). No scent or visual indication of oil in the exhaust. Engine fully resealed within 3000 miles.

1. Blowby: Engine shows no obvious signs of blowby. My compression is around 165psi on all 4, and minimal changes when a squirt of SAE 30 was applied to the cylinders. Plugs are not oiled.

2. PCV system: I saw a bit of oil in the intake tube so I replaced the hoses and PCV valve. Cleaned the intake tube thoroughly to be able to check later on. Very minimal residue present after roughly 1000 miles and 2 quarts of oil replaced.

3. Leaks: None. Nothing from the HGs, VCs, filter, drain plug, oil pump, oil pan, front or rear mains, cam seals. Even went so far as to suspend a piece of cardboard directly underneath the pass side of the engine in case it was being burned off by the cat.

Conclusion: Through the intense power and torque developed by the EA82, it acted as a supercollider and incidentally created a small black hole which consumes oil at a steady rate.

#2 man on the moon

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 09:32 PM

Rear main?

#3 zukiru

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 09:40 PM

Just to further your paradox, my engine tends to have an oil film all over it, but oil level is always full.
Theory; your oil is being dripped on my engine via a wormhole.

#4 92_rugby_subie

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 09:46 PM

Just to further your paradox, my engine tends to have an oil film all over it, but oil level is always full.
Theory; your oil is being dripped on my engine via a wormhole.


+1 lol

#5 rain_man_rich

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 09:53 PM

Wheres Steven Hawking when you need him?

#6 grossgary

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 09:55 PM

your neighbor is stealing your oil?

1 quart for every 400 miles is an insane amount of oil, it's got to show up somewhere? you can't just dump 5 quarts of oil every 2,000 miles in an engine and not have a sign?\

you've thoroughly checked everywhere for any sign of a leak?

pull the intake a few times and keep an eye on it - maybe you only pulled it when it was lightly leaking and now that it's really bad you just haven't seen it yet?

never any blue smoke?

#7 cal_look_zero

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 11:08 PM

Just to further your paradox, my engine tends to have an oil film all over it, but oil level is always full.
Theory; your oil is being dripped on my engine via a wormhole.


Sounds legit.

your neighbor is stealing your oil?

1 quart for every 400 miles is an insane amount of oil, it's got to show up somewhere? you can't just dump 5 quarts of oil every 2,000 miles in an engine and not have a sign?\

you've thoroughly checked everywhere for any sign of a leak?

pull the intake a few times and keep an eye on it - maybe you only pulled it when it was lightly leaking and now that it's really bad you just haven't seen it yet?

never any blue smoke?


I just fully resealed the engine and cleaned everything, so I'd be able to see a leak easily. I've checked the intake a few times and it's nothing more than a residue. Never any blue smoke.

#8 Loyale 2.7 Turbo

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 11:13 PM

Just to further your paradox, my engine tends to have an oil film all over it, but oil level is always full.
Theory; your oil is being dripped on my engine via a wormhole.


I Like That!


Well... Have you Changed the Valves' Seals?

It could be Burning the oil and maybe you haven't noticed the Blue Smoke... Yet.

#9 cal_look_zero

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 11:25 PM

I Like That!


Well... Have you Changed the Valves' Seals?

It could be Burning the oil and maybe you haven't noticed the Blue Smoke... Yet.


I know at the rate it's going, I would see/smell the smoke in the exhaust. I didn't change the valve stem seals though.

#10 Stubies Subie

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 12:22 AM

I'm going to assume that you have a SPFI engine.

I do to, and I'm experiencing exactly the same problem you are. My engine has also been completely resealed recently. I think it’s more than a coincidence.

Here’s what I think:

I see three potential problems that can lead to the oil sucking through the vacuum system.

The PCV valve feeds off the driver’s side valve cover, and in long sweeping right hand turns, the oil can accumulate over at the driver’s side head and be sucked through the vacuum system and the PCV valve. (This is Subaru's theory)

I believe the problem to be a little more involved then "only happening in sweeping right hand turns" hence the burnt oil smell after a nice commute to or from work.
Take a look at the following pictures, this should be the setup you have right now:
Posted Image
In the above picture you will see the way the PCV is plumbed, it pulls off of the drives side valve cover only.
Here’s another picture of the same side, showing where it “T”s into the PCV valve:
Posted Image

The way this SPFI vacuum system are plumbed, it draws a considerable amount of vacuum off the driver’s side valve cover. So any time you have the throttle open, it’s going to suck oil out of the drives side valve cover, and with a freshly re-sealed engine, that pressure is going to be greater than an engine with oil leaks that has not been resealed.

Subaru offers a PCV hose re-route kit that consists of the following parts:
Posted Image


And installed it ties the left and right side of the engine together into the PCV system as shown in the following picture:
Posted Image
This is supposed to eliminate the oil sucking problem.



I just ordered this kit and will be installing it when I get home tonight, this should improve on the oil sucking problem. I will report back on that one.

Through some intense internet research on the subject, I've also read that using an aftermarket PCV valve can lead to the oil sucking problem as well. So you want to use a PCV valve from the Subaru dealer only. I’m not 100% convinced on that one as I have no idea who’s manufacturing the PCV valves for the Subaru dealer, but I suspect it is not Subaru themselves, so it’s quite possible you could get the same PCV valve from an auto parts store that the Subaru dealer stocks.

If the PCV valve re-route kit doesn’t work, I’ll try a new PCV valve from the Subaru dealer.

And last but not least, if both of those remedies fail, there’s always the oil catch can which I will try on mine if the hose re-route and new PCV valve don’t work.

Hope this helps, Stuart

Edited by Stubies Subie, 07 December 2011 - 12:30 AM.


#11 cal_look_zero

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 12:38 AM

I'm going to assume that you have a SPFI engine.

I do to, and I'm experiencing exactly the same problem you are. My engine has also been completely resealed recently. I think it’s more than a coincidence.

Here’s what I think:

I see three potential problems that can lead to the oil sucking through the vacuum system.

The PCV valve feeds off the driver’s side valve cover, and in long sweeping right hand turns, the oil can accumulate over at the driver’s side head and be sucked through the vacuum system and the PCV valve. (This is Subaru's theory)

I believe the problem to be a little more involved then "only happening in sweeping right hand turns" hence the burnt oil smell after a nice commute to or from work.
Take a look at the following pictures, this should be the setup you have right now:
Posted Image
In the above picture you will see the way the PCV is plumbed, it pulls off of the drives side valve cover only.
Here’s another picture of the same side, showing where it “T”s into the PCV valve:
Posted Image

The way this SPFI vacuum system are plumbed, it draws a considerable amount of vacuum off the driver’s side valve cover. So any time you have the throttle open, it’s going to suck oil out of the drives side valve cover, and with a freshly re-sealed engine, that pressure is going to be greater than an engine with oil leaks that has not been resealed.

Subaru offers a PCV hose re-route kit that consists of the following parts:
Posted Image


And installed it ties the left and right side of the engine together into the PCV system as shown in the following picture:
Posted Image
This is supposed to eliminate the oil sucking problem.



I just ordered this kit and will be installing it when I get home tonight, this should improve on the oil sucking problem. I will report back on that one.

Through some intense internet research on the subject, I've also read that using an aftermarket PCV valve can lead to the oil sucking problem as well. So you want to use a PCV valve from the Subaru dealer only. I’m not 100% convinced on that one as I have no idea who’s manufacturing the PCV valves for the Subaru dealer, but I suspect it is not Subaru themselves, so it’s quite possible you could get the same PCV valve from an auto parts store that the Subaru dealer stocks.

If the PCV valve re-route kit doesn’t work, I’ll try a new PCV valve from the Subaru dealer.

And last but not least, if both of those remedies fail, there’s always the oil catch can which I will try on mine if the hose re-route and new PCV valve don’t work.

Hope this helps, Stuart


I already have the combined hoses (The "Fixed" Version) and compared the OEM part to the $3 AutoZone one, and they were identical.

#12 Stubies Subie

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 12:54 AM

I''ll try the PCV hose mod on mine and see is that helps, but for your car, I'd probably spend the 10 bucks and go the dealer for the PCV valve,

you can't judge a book by the cover if your refering to the PCV valves looking the same on the outside.

if the hose mod don't work on mine, I'll do the PCv valve next.

#13 zukiru

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 02:01 AM

I always hear that same bit about PCV valves being better from the dealer.
the same was said to me about my old chrysler conquest. truth was the ONLY reason the dealer valve was better was that the sutoparts stores were selling the weaker non-turbo valves for use in the turbo system.
I would see if the turbo PCV lists at your local part store as the same item.

#14 cal_look_zero

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 02:12 AM

I''ll try the PCV hose mod on mine and see is that helps, but for your car, I'd probably spend the 10 bucks and go the dealer for the PCV valve,

you can't judge a book by the cover if your refering to the PCV valves looking the same on the outside.

if the hose mod don't work on mine, I'll do the PCv valve next.


Identical. Same internal number stamping, same weight, everything.

I always hear that same bit about PCV valves being better from the dealer.
the same was said to me about my old chrysler conquest. truth was the ONLY reason the dealer valve was better was that the sutoparts stores were selling the weaker non-turbo valves for use in the turbo system.
I would see if the turbo PCV lists at your local part store as the same item.


I'm so over the OEM vs AM argument myself. Same dang argument I get in the paint world.

Truth is, I could paint a car better with Krylon than anyone off the street could with my $1k gun and premium PPG paint. Why? Prep and procedure. Do it right, take your time, and triple check your work.

/rant.

#15 Stubies Subie

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 04:10 AM

Identical. Same internal number stamping, same weight, everything.



I'm so over the OEM vs AM argument myself. Same dang argument I get in the paint world.

Truth is, I could paint a car better with Krylon than anyone off the street could with my $1k gun and premium PPG paint. Why? Prep and procedure. Do it right, take your time, and triple check your work.

/rant.


It could be that you got a bad PCV valve, it has been known to happen ..

The bottom line is, something is causing your car to suck oil, and you don’t know what’s causing it, until you have been able to verify without question that a certain component is or is not working in your PCV system, then you can't rule anything out, including the possibility of a bad PCV valve.

I pulled my hoses tonight when I installed the PCV reroute kit, the hoses were full of oil.
I’d at least check yours, if their dry, then you can rule out the PVC system and look for another cause, but if their oil soaked, then we need to figure out why. :)

#16 Loyale 2.7 Turbo

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 10:55 AM

Well, I Dismissed the idea of the PCV Suckin' oil, when I Readed This:
 

...
1. Blowby: Engine shows no obvious signs of blowby. ...

2. PCV system: I saw a bit of oil in the intake tube so I replaced the hoses and PCV valve. Cleaned the intake tube thoroughly to be able to check later on. Very minimal residue present after roughly 1000 miles and 2 quarts of oil replaced.
...



That's Why I asked:


 

... Have you Changed the Valves' Seals? ...


 

The answer was:



I know at the rate it's going, I would see/smell the smoke in the exhaust. I didn't change the valve stem seals though.


 

The Blue Smoke isn't always "Visible" because some engines that suck oil thru the Valves' Seals, only suck it to the cam when the engine is Working, you know: in Gear and Higher RPM's.

Then, the Smoke will go fast away from the Car and you'll not be able to identify properly the Situation, Specially if you Tried to "Visualize" the Smoke from the Rear view mirror while Driving.

My vote is on the Valves' Seals.

Good Luck!


Kind Regards.


Edited by Loyale 2.7 Turbo, 22 June 2013 - 03:38 PM.


#17 Cyfun

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 01:04 PM

Try a cheap catchcan: Get a big clear plastic inline fuel filter for a couple bucks. They're usually set up for 1/4" hose. Not sure what the PCV line is, might have to use some adapters. I did this on my Eagle Talon turbo, catches enough of the oil to not let it get into the intake, and I just unhook it and pour it into the crankcase occasionally.

At the very least it'd give you an idea of how much oil is going through your PCV system.

#18 Loyale 2.7 Turbo

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 01:34 PM

...They're usually set up for 1/4" hose. Not sure what the PCV line is...



The PCV Line is 5/8" on EA82 Subies... (Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse \ Kias and Hondas... etc, has 3/8")

To Reduce it from 5/8" to 1/4" could be Dangerously Restrictive,

 

but it 'could be' Good, just using another fitting bigger than 1/4, such like 5/16".

 

 

 

Also, You can Use the Subaru's PCV Reroute Kit, Part Number 11813AA010

 

For the EFi EA82's as Stubies Subie Sugested:

 

spfi.jpg

 

You can Download a .pdf File with the info, ~► Here.

 



I Fixed my Carburated EA82's PCV Problems using an Oil Catch Can, Look Here:

~► http://www.ultimates...-in-ea82/page-2

Kind Regards.

► Updated to Fix the Web Links, due to the USMB's New System


Edited by Loyale 2.7 Turbo, 22 June 2013 - 05:03 PM.


#19 Cyfun

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 02:07 PM

Ah yeah, the Suub motors have massive PCV lines, that's right. I bet you could find a fuel filter that might fit somewhere. But what I suggested might at least work temporarily so that he could determine if the PCV is gushing oil.

The jar idea is great, too, for a more permanent solution. Someone needs to make those things in kits for $25.

#20 cal_look_zero

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 05:03 PM

I have some more 5/8 hose laying around, think I'll try that catch can idear.

Although a new "wtf" presented today. I drove about 5 miles to drop my son off, and noticed a tiny wisp of smoke come off the driver's side almost from behind the headlight as I was walking back to the car. ~2 minutes had elapsed since I shut the car off... hmmmmmm.

#21 renob123

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 06:08 PM

Let's back up for just a second. Are you sure it's really losing that much? Both of my Subarus seem to give erratic readings on the dipstick. I have to be very careful when I check oil levels.

I'm sorry that I'm questioning your basic understanding of car maintenance, but Subaru oil levels are just plain weird.

Jacob

#22 cal_look_zero

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 06:26 PM

Let's back up for just a second. Are you sure it's really losing that much? Both of my Subarus seem to give erratic readings on the dipstick. I have to be very careful when I check oil levels.

I'm sorry that I'm questioning your basic understanding of car maintenance, but Subaru oil levels are just plain weird.

Jacob


Oh yeah, it's using that much. My car amazingly (335k miles) doesn't have the TOD unless the oil gets low. I went 600 miles between checks and had under 3 qts in it when I changed the oil.

#23 Dj7291993

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 10:53 PM

Well, I Dismissed the idea of the PCV Suckin' oil, when I Readed This:



That's Why I asked:



The answer was:



The Blue Smoke isn't always "Visible" because some engines that suck oil thru the Valves' Seals, only suck it to the cam when the engine is Working, you know: in Gear and Higher RPM's.

Then, the Smoke will go fast away from the Car and you'll not be able to identify properly the Situation, Specially if you Tried to "Visualize" the Smoke from the Rear view mirror while Driving.

My vote is on the Valves' Seals.

Good Luck!
Kind Regards.



I agree. You won't get the valve seal leak at low rpm, especially not idea, and it won't be dropping a high enough concentration of oil to give you the big blue cloud, but it is enough to have to fill it regularly. If the oil is coming in lightly, and you don't have any major vacuum leaks, you wouldn't notice power loss, as oil actually burns pretty well. Since the amount won't ever driven it, it won't affect performance, at least, not noticeably.

#24 Skysm182

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 12:24 AM

a lot of words and some pics


where did you get this pcv re-route kit from? do you have a part number for it?

#25 Stubies Subie

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 05:33 AM

where did you get this pcv re-route kit from? do you have a part number for it?


I got the PCV kit from Walker Subaru in Renton Washington (mail order)
The part number is 11813AA010.

I installed the kit yesterday, and only driven about 60 miles since, but have already seen a huge improvement.




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