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final preparedness for 5spd DR swap


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25 replies to this topic

#1 TajMan

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:26 PM

I've been amassing everything I need. My '83 Brat used to be an automatic trans car, now its currently a 4-speed single-range manual out of an '81 Wagon using the small clutch.

My 5-speed dual range is out of an '87 GL.
I have the Brat '84 large flywheel and pressure plate, with correct clutch disc for the 5-speed input splines.
(I don't have a proper alignment tool, but I was going to wrap a 4-speed alignment tool in electrical tape.. and try to guess as close as possible)
I have all parts modified by Jerry in WA for trans mounts and shifter/linkage conversion.
I have new axles, I have a newly rebuilt 1-piece driveshaft that was lengthened with 51" of new tubing (10.5" longer than stock I believe).

I had just stumbled upon this page:
http://offroadingsub...3sedan_4wd.html

I know that Leone started out a different 2WD sedan, but it was still an '83 ea81 car..

so, I guess I space out the starter motor 4mm to work?:
Posted Image

then there was this:
"started on the clutch cable. This needed swapping because the EA82 gearbox has its clutch lever on the left side of the gearbox, not the right like the EA81's have it."
Posted ImagePosted Image
"Comparison of the EA81 (below) clutch to the EA82 (on top) clutch. And what the EA82 clutch looks like on the EA81 pedal box."
Posted ImagePosted Image
"The pedal box chopped and drilled. Then the clutch cable bolted on, with a new set of holes this time in the right place.

With the pedal box bolted back into the car and cable connected to the gearbox the pedal sits level with the brake."

Is all of this required? I was not aware of any conversion differences between the 4-speed and 5-speed clutch pedal/cable.


Should I expect any clearance issues with trans tunnel on my '83 car and the 5spd DR, or does it maybe have the biggest tunnel possible with the '83 being an auto car originally?


I daily drive my car, i didn't want to push it and start a swap today with my buddy, in the cold, just to run into a hang-up and have no car to drive.

Edited by TajMan, 18 December 2011 - 12:28 PM.


#2 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:40 PM

I've done a number of these swaps.

1. I've never changed the clutch cable. The EA81 cable works great.

2. I've never spaced out the starter. They always have worked fine.

3. You can't use the EA81 flywheel in it's stock dimensions. You have to have it resurfaced to a .815" step. That means machining down the outside edge by about .1" or so. The EA81 flywheel is too deep for the EA82 pressure plate and the EA81 pressure plate has the wrong dimensions on the springs for the EA82 T/O bearing. You need to use the EA82 pressure plate and remachine the flywheel to match or use the EA82 flywheel and grind the bottom of the bell-housing and transfer your timing marks to it.

GD

#3 TajMan

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 02:17 PM

3. You can't use the EA81 flywheel in it's stock dimensions. You have to have it resurfaced to a .815" step. That means machining down the outside edge by about .1" or so. The EA81 flywheel is too deep for the EA82 pressure plate and the EA81 pressure plate has the wrong dimensions on the springs for the EA82 T/O bearing. You need to use the EA82 pressure plate and remachine the flywheel to match or use the EA82 flywheel and grind the bottom of the bell-housing and transfer your timing marks to it.

GD


I'm having difficulty, thinking I'm understanding you now..

I was told what I'm doing will work, and all the parts I have are:
-ea81 large flywheel/matching ea81 pressure plate
-ea82 clutch disc with the proper center hub that DOES fit inside the ea81 pressure plate

--so you're saying the ea82 TOB isn't the correct diameter where it would contact the ea81 pp teeth, and the ea81 TOB probably doesn't slide on the shaft inside the 5-speed trans correctly?--is there no TOB solution that can be found to work??

I don't have an ea82 flywheel OR pressure plate, both would cost more money to source than a strange TOB it would seem.

Jerry in WA was so detailed about the correct clutch disc I needed to get that would fit inside the ea81 flywheel/pp (small enough center hub w/ 6 springs) while having the larger diameter correct splines for the 5-speed DR trans.
Local clutch shop finally made me the semi-custom disc solution that would work.

PLZ god help me complete this swap without hundreds more in needed parts

#4 TajMan

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 02:36 PM

If you shave an ea81 flywheel down .1" or so, that's around 2.6mm... which is close and could account for the 4mm spacer for starter motor mentioned in that article.

Makes sense to me, only thing needed is actually a correct TOB to work for this combo?

#5 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 04:21 PM

Well - the end result if you use that combo is that the PP fingers don't contact the T/O bearing in the correct place. The EA81 T/O is a lot smaller than the EA82/EJ T/O and so I suspect you get a much harder pedal feel than was intended by the design - it also will change the location of the clutch fork on the EA82 transmission and may cause adjustment issues with the cable because you are effectively moving the entire flywheel and clutch combo toward the transmission by the aforementioned .1" - thus requireing the starter spacer, etc.

That's a big cludged-up system for what is a pretty simple-to-solve problem. Resurface the EA81 flywheel to the EA82 step height and use 100% EA82 clutch parts, or use the EA82 flywheel and use 100% EA82 clutch parts. Then the starter works normally, the clutch fork and cable all work as intended, and the T/O contacts the PP as designed.

I realize that the 85/86 round-spring-pack EA82 disc's will fit the EA81 pressure plate and slide into the EA82 transmission. But it's still a cludged-up setup that doesn't work as well as the two methods I list above. I just did one last week with the EA82 flywheel - all you have to do is grind about 1/4" of material away from the bottom of the bell-housing "window" and transfer the "0" mark for the timing. With the zero mark known you can work out where any other mark you could want is located for ignition timing. This whole process takes about 20 minutes (grinding and zero mark transfer).

I doubt there is a T/O bearing that has a smaller diameter and will work with the EA81 PP. This is due to the EA82 transmission having a larger diameter input shaft and quill. And that still doesn't solve the location of the fork in relation to the cable. If you move the whole clutch pack backwards toward the transmission then you move the cable adjustment way out to the end of the cable or beyond it.

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 18 December 2011 - 04:30 PM.


#6 Crazyeights

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 10:20 PM

This is GREAT info, perhaps it should be added to the 5 spd DR swap guides. It sure saves a lot of time and the trial and error I went through on my first swap. I ended up fixing the problem but I never could understand why the clutch cable location was wrong.

Thanks!

#7 TajMan

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 11:44 AM

This IS great info for sure.

I'm believing that more things are possible even if some things aren't perfectly ideal.
Even talking with clutch experts at exchange parts clutch shop, "2.6mm in that spot where the TOB moves isn't much"
Cable clutch system, leverage/adjustment points CAN be altered if need be.


I ordered a new ea82 TOB from autozone. I'm going to see how it seems to line up with teeth of ea81 pressure plate, and most likely give it a shot with my ea81 flywheel/pressure plate from '84 4-speed Brat being used.
.. and that will mean spacing starter out with washers to gain correct alignment.

I will report back what happens.

Obtaining even an ea82 pressure plate, would require me to either pay $180 or the labor to drop ANOTHER '87 car's transmission out in the freezing cold and snow at self-pull junk yard, plus probably $25. No thanks.

#8 Gloyale

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 02:40 PM

Use a TOB from early Nissan pickups, or early Isuzu trooper (newly discovered interchange)

#9 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 03:03 PM

Use a TOB from early Nissan pickups, or early Isuzu trooper (newly discovered interchange)


That is the T/O you need to put the 5 speed clutch in a 4 speed application. I don't think that will fit the 5 speed D/R....

GD

#10 TajMan

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 09:56 AM

using the correct 5spd DR TOB and then altering contact points (the 2 spots the clutch fork touches the TOB)... seems like it would be pretty easy to grind off 2.6-4mm, then it seems everything would be back to stock measurements for the clutch fork/clutch cable?

#11 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 12:53 PM

5 speed D/R TOB is made from stamped materials unlike the 4 speed unit. There is not enough material to grind. Same with the fork - it's stamped and unless you grind and weld on it for reinforcing.... not going to happen. Personally I wouldn't mess with them - they already have a tendancy to crack when fatigued. Which is another reason that altering the PP finger location could be an issue down the road - the more force is required the harder the pedal will be and the more load you apply to the fork. Forks are known to crack and snap in half on occasion.

GD

#12 TajMan

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 01:34 AM

Yeah I checked one that came in to Autozone today,
and it was stamped steel too thin to grind anywhere, and also the ring diameter was too large, it would have contacted the ea81 pp teeth too far out and clutch would have been super stiff if working at all.

Still not sure where I'll find a TOB or what will happen next..

#13 Mugs

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 02:06 AM

I've done a number of these swaps.


2. I've never spaced out the starter. They always have worked fine.

3. You can't use the EA81 flywheel in it's stock dimensions. You have to have it resurfaced to a .815" step. That means machining down the outside edge by about .1" or so. The EA81 flywheel is too deep for the EA82 pressure plate and the EA81 pressure plate has the wrong dimensions on the springs for the EA82 T/O bearing. You need to use the EA82 pressure plate and remachine the flywheel to match or use the EA82 flywheel and grind the bottom of the bell-housing and transfer your timing marks to it.

GD


I had to space out my EA81 starter because it would stay engaged in the fly wheel teeth other wise.

I used the EA81 Flywheel because the EA82 fly wheel has bigger holes and the the EA82 bolts are to big to fit in the EA81 Crank...

I used the EA82 clutch, Pressure Plate, throw out bearing, pilot bearing, and clutch fork...on the EA81 fly wheel....no machining was needed...been driving it for a 8 months now...no issues.

I did not have to use the Jerry's custom brackets...I used two of the driver side mounting brakets...just drilled the one out to fit the hole placement for the passenger side. (I am pretty sure it was the drivers side I used for both...I will need to check.)

I did not have to replace the clutch cable either.

This conversion was done on my 86 BRAT EA81 HLA engine

#14 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 02:51 AM

I used the EA82 clutch, Pressure Plate, throw out bearing, pilot bearing, and clutch fork...on the EA81 fly wheel....no machining was needed...been driving it for a 8 months now...no issues.


It will work when the disc is brand new. But it will slip easier and you will not get the full life out of the disc. With the larger step of the EA81 flywheel it's as if you had put a used clutch in that's at the last 25% of it's life. Sure it will still work but it's only got 25% left till it's too thin to hold without slipping.

The larger holes in the EA82 flywheel are of no concern. You use the smaller EA81 bolts and you torque it properly. It does not cause a problem. I've run probably a dozen like this over the years and it's never been an issue.

GD

#15 Mugs

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 03:01 AM

Makes sense....I was just concerned about the holes being too big and the bolts too small...I was afraid of fly wheel slippage/hole hogging...When I pull the motor (next month) I'll do the swap, as I have an EA82 flywheel just laying around.

#16 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 03:06 AM

Yeah I can understand the concern. But really you have like 8 bolts torqued to 55 ft/lbs. Chances of it moving are really freakin slim. If you really want to be careful make sure you thread in all the bolts and then rock the flywheel clockwise before torquing them. This will insure that the shock loading from engaging the clutch will tend to push against the bolts rather than against empty space.

You could also get some peices of tubing to cut and put around the bolts to take up the space.

Not really an issue in the real world though.

GD

#17 TajMan

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 12:06 PM

I'm still hanging here on this..

Clutch shop here doesn't have lots of TOB's in stock on the shelf I can test and play with. Anyone know what else would fit on that larger trans shaft diameter? Isuzu TOB? Anything else I could check and compare?


There are no more ea82 5-speed cars in the junk yards here right now, so nothing for me to go pull the pressure plate and flywheel I need.

The ea82 TOB does press the ea81 pressure plate in too large of a circle, it would not work or else the pedal would be crazy stiff.

If anyone online has a used 5-speed dual range pressure plate for sale, I would pay for it now and use w/ a new TOB! I'm not gonna spend like $300+ for another clutch kit now

#18 Gloyale

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 01:48 PM

85-88 Isuzu trooper TOB should work.

Large inner diameter, fits EA82 snout.
Small contact ring, like the EA81 TOB, should mate up to the EA81 PP fingers.

#19 TajMan

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 11:28 AM

85-88 isuzu trooper tob should work.

Large inner diameter, fits ea82 snout.
Small contact ring, like the ea81 tob, should mate up to the ea81 pp fingers.


thank you

#20 TajMan

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 06:39 PM

Can you verify for what model the Isuzu TOB is I need?

Autozone ordered one, I think it was for an 85 Trooper with a 1.9L SOHC 4cyl engine.
The TOB that came looked like it could be correct the inner diameter for the trans 'snout', and the ring that presses the pressure plate teeth, however it was just a round bearing, I am not sure how the clutch fork is supposed to attach to the TOB.
(stock clutch fork attaches to the TOB that has 2 flat spots/angle brackets and theare are 2 wire clips that lock the fork to the TOB)

Is it possible the Isuzu round bearing would just freewheel, and the Subaru clutch fork would just press wherever against the bearing race when the clutch was depressed?

#21 TajMan

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 04:38 PM

Turns out that was the correct Isuzu TOB (85 4-cyl), but you don't just use that alone,
YOU ACTUALLY MAKE AN ENTIRELY 1-OFF TOB USING PARTS FROM THE NEW ISUZU BEARING AND BRACKET FROM THE OLD 5-SPEED TOB.

This allows for use of the 83?+ larger diameter 4-speed Brat flywheel & pressure plate matching, to be used with the correct 5-speed clutch disc and your newly designed TOB (with the 5-speed dual range transmission).

We'll see how the clutch cable alignment works, brackets can be modified if needed.

And yes, this should require the starter motor bolts being spaced out a few mm with washers.

I will post a new how-to thread tonight with pics, pertaining to this swap and parts choices.

#22 TajMan

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 04:51 PM

I'm not even 100% sure how I'll rig it yet, I don't like the TQ required to press the pp teeth relying solely on an '87 plastic piece from 5-speed TOB, I'm not sure how strong that plastic is.

I'll see if I can get a 1.5" inner diameter and 2.5" outer diameter ring pressed/made out of a sheet of thin steel that will be strong (stronger than plastic which might crack)

#23 TajMan

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 01:42 AM

http://www.ultimates...035#post1076035

#24 coxy

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:01 PM

Regarding the Clutch cable and Clutch pedal arm mods all of that is required because of Right hand drive where all the controls are where an American passenger sit's.

When a standard clutch cable runs from the left hand side of the vehicle looking back from in front of the vehicle then it all becomes obvious why the standard cable will not work in the UK or Australia where we are R/H drive vehicles, Hence the confusion.


Edited by coxy, 31 December 2013 - 06:01 PM.


#25 Gloyale

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 10:20 PM


That is the T/O you need to put the 5 speed clutch in a 4 speed application. I don't think that will fit the 5 speed D/R....

GD

 

Yeah....that's the conbo to use with the Nissan TO.....EA82 clutch with EA81 trans.

 

The first gen trooper Throw out bearing is opposite.......Slides on the EA82 quill, but is smaller and tapered like EA81 TO.

 

81-87ish??? Trooper (diesel for sure, pretty sure Gas is same)






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