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Wiper Madness!


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24 replies to this topic

#1 asavage

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 10:22 PM

I am going out of my freakin' mind here.

My '93 Loyale has intermittant wipers. The switch/stalk reads

Off
Int
Lo
Hi


(or something like that)

When using "Int", the wipers will often take two or three jerks to get across the glass. I can clearly hear the intermittant module's relay clicking on & off.

Works fine in Lo & Hi.

I've swapped the wiper motor (Thanks, Turbone) and the Intermittant Wiper Module (Thanks, Gabe), and it still does it.

I don't have a FSM. I've been looking to buy one for less than $200 and have failed. Alldata refuses to acknowledge that the '93 has the optional intermittant wipers; it only has a wiring diagram for the Lo/Hi system.

Please! If somebody has a FSM for Loyale/GL for close to '93, and has a wiring diagram for an intermittant wiper system where the module has six wires (and not eight), I will pay any reasonable amount to get a copy of that diagram. Email me at the address in the sig.

Before I lose it completely.

#2 speedbump

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 10:26 PM

this might not relate at all,but I know that when GM trucks start doing that,I pry open the gear case on the wiper motor and wipe out the crud on the conductive strips for the park circuit.Works every time.
hope this helps!

#3 calebz

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 11:21 PM

Still waiting for my FSM to be reurned to me.. its an 88.. Ill see if it has what you need.. hopefully I get it back soon.. gonna need it myself here shortly

#4 asavage

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 11:50 PM

Originally posted by speedbump
when GM trucks start doing that,I pry open the gear case on the wiper motor and wipe out the crud on the conductive strips for the park circuit.

I did that, first thing. Mine looks like new under the cover, the grease is nice and yellow and not caked, circular strips very clean. I moved some of the grease around to get into the worm drive better, and buttoned it back up. No change.

Also, I layed the spare wiper motor on the strut tower and plugged it in, ran it, and it stoped/started in intermittant mode just the same. I don't think it's the wiper motor, if two do the same thing, and the one I opened up looks perfect.

Thanks for the suggestion, though.

#5 asavage

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 11:53 PM

Originally posted by calebz
Still waiting for my FSM to be reurned to me.. its an 88.. Ill see if it has what you need

I'm pretty sure that an '88 FSM won't have the info. I say this, because I pulled the int. wiper module from Turbone's '88, and not only was it in a different location, it has eight wires to the module (mine has six). And the module doesn't work in my system, though it will plug in.

Thanks, anyway.

#6 speedbump

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 11:53 PM

harness connector in good shape? also check current at the connector to see if the switch is acting up.

#7 ananda

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 03:21 AM

Hello, hope this helps.
Richard in Stone City, Iowa

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#8 drewcifer85710

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 05:07 AM

Don't mean to hijack, but this is fairly close to something I haven't been able to figure out: I have the INT setting on my 86 GL-10 but I don't see how I'm supposed to adjust the frequency of the wipers.. the way it functions now INT is just a little slower than LO, which isn't really intermittent at all, at lest by the standards of every other car I've had. Owner's manual no help.

Am I missing something or is that all there is?

--Drew

#9 asavage

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 08:49 AM

Originally posted by ananda
Hello, hope this helps.

Unfortunately, no.
That diagram has no "Int" setting, and no intermittant module -- I have that diagram already.

See the switch table? The one you've attached has these modes:

Mist
Off
1
2
W (washer)


The one I need would have "Int" between Off and 1.

Thanks for trying!

#10 asavage

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 08:54 AM

Originally posted by speedbump
harness connector in good shape? also check current at the connector to see if the switch is acting up.

Yes, the connectors on both the module and the motor are in good condition.

I cannot check current at the connector without a wiring diagram -- this system is too complex to guess what wire is supposed to have what current. Hence, I need the correct docs.

With six wires coming out of the int module, I'd have to take a couple hours to write my own schematic in order to debug it. I would much prefer to work with the FSM wiring diagram.

#11 asavage

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 08:57 AM

Originally posted by drewcifer85710
I have the INT setting on my 86 GL-10 but I don't see how I'm supposed to adjust the frequency of the wipers.

On my '93, the frequency is not adjustable. The interval is very close to five-six seconds.

#12 ananda

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 04:20 AM

Found another picture. Hope this helps.
Richard at Stone City

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  • Attached File  w2.jpg   17.61K   112 downloads


#13 asavage

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 12:40 PM

Thanks, again, Richard, but no-go.

I, too, have the Mitchell DVD set, as well as the Alldata set. When neither Mitchell nor Alldata showed an Int. wiper schematic, I went looking a few years either side of '93, trying to find one, and came across the one you have.

The pic you attached is too low-res to make out much, but I can tell this much: it's got the eight-wire Int. module (upper right). The later units are six-wire, and are different from the eight-wire ones. Physically, the eight-wire module will plug into the six-wire system, but it doesn't work in that combo -- I know, I own both modules (Thanks, Turbone!).

That's why I'm trying to find someone who has the FSM -- Alldata & Mitchell do not show Int. wiper information for '93 Loyale series.

#14 bushbasher

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 02:51 PM

mine does the same thing as yours but it happens very intermittently. It will usually do it when I first turn it on but after going back and forth for awhile it stops. Maybe the contant strips are clean but the contacts have lost the springyness to make contact all the time.

#15 Cougar

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 03:26 PM

Hi Al,

Looks like you got a good one here but it shouldn't be too hard to find the culprit here I would think, especially since you have replaced the control module (hopefully a known good one and not one with the same problem).

Have you checked the wiper switch in the intermitant position with a meter to see if things are ok there? I would also check the main power to the control module and make sure that there is a steady supply to it.

#16 asavage

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 06:36 PM

Originally posted by Cougar
Looks like you got a good one here but it shouldn't be too hard to find the culprit here I would think, especially since you have replaced the control module (hopefully a known good one and not one with the same problem).

Well, Gabe pulled one from a junkyard car in Maine, so it's not a known-good unit, but I think the likelihood of both having the same symptom is low, considering nobody else seems to have had this particular problem and reported it.

Have you checked the wiper switch in the intermitant position with a meter to see if things are ok there? I would also check the main power to the control module and make sure that there is a steady supply to it.

Both are fine suggestions, but I was really, really hoping to have a real wiring diagram w/colors before I inverted myself and slipped under the dash.

Sigh. Well, I guess I'll do it the hard way then. I so damned lazy. The problem with diagnosing it that way is that the problem with the intermittant system is intemittant, so I'll have to break out the harness and/or tack in test leads so that the next time it stutters, I can connect test gear when it happens. For example, right now, in sunny, dry weather, it works OK. But when I'm driving the thing, the next time it actually rains, it might work OK for a few minutes, then start acting up, and I'm not where I can easily invert myself and get under the dash.

[Long, non-Subaru tale of woe follows; this is how I get to spend my Sunday afternoons.]

I've just spent five hours off/on with a '91 DeVille "Passkey" system (the early one with a choice of 15 different resistor pellets in the ign key, and a scanner module to read the key's resistance on insertion), what a nightmare. Got it working in bench mode, so tomorrow I get to come in and solder it all up and put the zillion interiour trim pieces back in place. I inherited it as a basket case from a tech who just went on vacation, and he and another tech have been throwing parts at it for about a week to get it to this state. What a mess.

The initial problem was intermittant no-start, which a modicum of internet research would have found that the leads to the ign lock cylinder are frail and become frayed and short to ground. That was the real problem, but these guys jumpered and crosswired the enable relay and several grounds to get the thing from an intermittant no-start to a solid no-start.

The other techs bought a new GM Passkey module, plugged it in, and it immediately trained to the old ign key -- except the old ign key was on a sorta-shorted lock cylinder harness, so it trained to the wrong value. Still no-start. $250 shot to hell.

So I first had to undo all their wiring patches, then find a nice pot to sub the key resistor values, breakout the harness, and start dialing for dollars. Naturally, the system sets a timeout timer on unsuccessful key operation with the wrong key: three minutes. What nobody tells you is that it appears to be a non-volatile counter: you have to let it count down with the power applied, and the first time through the 15 values, I wasn't disconnecting the DMM, which apparently skewed the circuit resistance enough to baffle the module.

Anyway --- got it, finally.

Then I had to run through the whole chart of resistance values again to figure out what value the new Passkey module trained to, otherwise the new module is useless to *anybody*. These modules will only train once.

Now I've got a "spare" $250 GM Passkey (I) module with a (now) known resistor value, so if I need one, all I have to do is have two ign keys made with the old key cut but new resistor value, to match the new module's train value. Arrgh.

Anybody need a GM Passkey (I) module? I'll make them a helluva deal.

[Passkey grew up to be Passkey II, the apparently either Passkey III or Passlock, it's unclear. Those systems get more sophisticated.]

#17 Cougar

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 11:34 PM

Well it sounds like you have been having some fun cleaning up someone elses mess up. It seems like another tech tale of a simple problem gone wrong, not checking for proper power. Your patience with it pays off with another good learning experience. The shop should let you handle the tougher problems first.

Your wiper problem may be the same type of thing. Though the systems may not be identical I figure they will be similar. I checked one of my manuals (for a 94 Legacy) and it shows a couple of connections from the switch tying to the module for the intermitant mode. My hunch is one of those connections is intermitant. You could try spraying some contact cleaner on the contacts, if you can get to them somehow, to see if that helps. The switch is the only thing you have not yet replaced so it points to that in my thinking, unless the replacement module has the same problem. The only other thing it could be is a bad wire connection between the the module and the motor; which you should be able to locate easily with your Fluke.

#18 asavage

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 12:56 AM

Originally posted by Cougar
The shop should let you handle the tougher problems first.

It's not really my job, if you know what I mean. But if I get bored, or things are slow, I'll take some of these on.

I checked one of my manuals (for a 94 Legacy) and it shows a couple of connections from the switch tying to the module for the intermitant mode.

[Snapping fingers]
Hey, that's a good idea. I've wandered through the DVD for other Loyale models, but didn't think to check Legacy. Hmmm. I'll check that out tomorrow.

My hunch is one of those connections is intermitant. You could try spraying some contact cleaner on the contacts, if you can get to them somehow, to see if that helps. The switch is the only thing you have not yet replaced so it points to that in my thinking, unless the replacement module has the same problem. The only other thing it could be is a bad wire connection between the the module and the motor; which you should be able to locate easily with your Fluke.

Far more likely to be the switch than the wiring, unless somebody's been in there before me.

I'm gonna check out the Legacy diagrams, and then I'll probably jumper in two test leads across the Int. position on the switch, and keep the 23 on the front seat (the 79 stays on the bench, it's too expensive for field work, or alternatively, I'm to cheap to let it outside.).

Thanks for the Legacy idea.

#19 speedbump

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 12:58 AM

remember to think simple! sube's engineers must have been:lol:

#20 Cougar

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 01:45 AM

Your welcome for the help Al. Keep us posted on the progress.

If working on the electronics is not your main area at work then I think the shop has you misplaced.

#21 EmmCeeBee

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 07:13 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by asavage:
...considering nobody else seems to have had this particular problem and reported it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Al, don't jump to conclusions there.... :)

My '88 has these symptoms exactly, precisely as you describe, for more than 10 years. I've been following this thread in the off chance that there's an easy fix (I've always assumed there's a fault on the circuit board).

In fact, I almost responded to the original posting like so:

"Same here. The only difference is that I decided long ago to live with it :)"

But I thought it didn't add to much to the discussion..... Still don't think so, but at least you can have the comfort of knowing ur not alone.

It's a quirk I've come to love in my Sub. I still have intermittent wiping through subconscious use of the "pull for one wipe" switch.

-- Mark

#22 Cougar

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 11:16 PM

Well Al, you most likely have this thing fixed by now unless you have been tied up with other things. Do you have any news?

#23 Adam N.D.J.

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 02:41 AM

First time I've seen this thread. I too have this same problem in my 89 GL, wipers jump two or three times, then wipe, and park, then does the same thing over. I too have gotten pretty good with the pull to wipe switch. If anyone figures this one out, lemme know, cause I haven't been able to make heads or tails of it.

#24 thealleyboy

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 04:38 PM

I can vouch for the fact that 93's came with the "Int" wiper unit...

As far as solving the problem, here's a long shot:

grounding problem

Try jumping the motor housing to chassis ground. I discovered this possibility while troubleshooting a wiper problem recently.

good luck, John

#25 asavage

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 11:26 AM

Well Al, you most likely have this thing fixed by now unless you have been tied up with other things. Do you have any news?

I obtained a faxed schematic from the dealer, who also claims that there is no six-wire int. module. He sent me a schematic for a '93 with eight wires, but the interesting thing is that, though there are no color codes for the wires, it's a real schematic of the internals of the module! No component values, but I can see what's there.

Turns out that the eight-wire module is very very similar to the six-wire module. The extra two wires? For the "volume" pot (that's what Fuji calls it!). The PCBs are the same, and the six-wire has a fixed resistor instead of the extra two contacts, and about four components missing (a cap, two resistors, and a diode). What this means is that I could take an eight-wire module, put a fixed or variable resistor on the extra two terminals (if I knew the correct resistance range, if I had another Sub. around that had it) and use it.

Anyway, now that I have an internal circuit diagram, I can see why this thing works when it does. I have the tool I wanted. But Jimmy crack corn . . .

Subaru has none of these modules in the US, new ones in Japan only, $120. I decided to cut my losses and let the new owner deal with it. I've got other things to do. It is very likely to be the module itself, I'm guessing either a bad cap or a leaky diode on the latch timer, but I'm going to bypass the whole issue and just leave it be. I could shotgun replace the likely suspects in about an hour, but it's no longer important to me.

I've got one eight-wire module (untested) and one six-wire module (definitely bad) as spares, laying side-by-side on my bench, and I think I'll put them in the junk bin.

If anybody wants a poor copy of the dealer schematic for this, I've got it. It's a little better than nothing. Email me.




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