lyter1983 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I have an 86 Brat. I bought a 98 Legacy 2.2 AWD 5spd to use as a donor car. I have both engines, transmissions, differentials, cv axles, hubs and drive shafts out of both vehicles. I know of the modifications I have to make to get the engine and tranny to fit, like drilling out the holes for the engine mounts, shortening the shift linkage and making room for the radiators. I have the entire wiring harness out of the legacy and have started to thin it down to what I need. I have someone to cut and weld my cv axles to the correct length. But I ran into a problem today. The rear 5 lug hubs from my 98 Legacy do not fit into the rear wheel bearings of the 86 Brat. The rear wheel bearings from the Legacy do not fit into the rear knuckle of the Brat. I am taking the whole steering knuckle and hub from the front so the front isn't a problem. But I can't use the rear knuckles because the rear suspension is completely different. I don't want to be stuck with 4 lug in the back and 5 lug in the front. I'm wondering if the 5 lug hub from an XT would fit in the rear wheel bearings of the Brat? If not, how would I go about solving this problem? Thanks Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 The xt6 5 lug hubs would be a possible solution. But you won't have an EBrake connection with this setup. I have this: http://www.crossbredperformance.com/ And am the USA dealer for the conversion kit. Takes about a month right now to get a kit but they are awesome. Last time I priced one, was around $1100 with US to AUS Dollar exchange rate. Totally worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyter1983 Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) The xt6 5 lug hubs would be a possible solution. But you won't have an EBrake connection with this setup. I have this: http://www.crossbredperformance.com/ And am the USA dealer for the conversion kit. Takes about a month right now to get a kit but they are awesome. Last time I priced one, was around $1100 with US to AUS Dollar exchange rate. Totally worth it. What cv axle would I use for those hubs? What cv axles would I use for the xt6 hubs? I know the Brat cv axles are 23 spline and legacy are 25 but with a smaller diameter, but unfamiliar with the xt's. Edited February 2, 2012 by lyter1983 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyter1983 Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 On a side note.. Is a 98 Legacy a generation 1 or 2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyter1983 Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 On a side note.. Is a 98 Legacy a generation 1 or 2? Nevermind... should have done more research on that one. dur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyter1983 Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Any one know where I can find 5 lug xt hubs??? I'm going to continue my search but I'm not having any luck so far. Probably gonna have to go junk yard hopping huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyter1983 Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 5 lug Legacy hub. about 1 7/16ths outer diameter. about 1 inch inner diameter. 5 lug Legacy hub with Brat rear wheel bearing placed on top About 1 3/8 inch inner diameter. Since I'm not having any luck finding affordable xt6 hubs. ($550 seems kinda steep...), I am considering having these Legacy hubs machined down to fit into the Brat wheel bearings. Is 3/8 inch enough thickness to be considered safe? I figure if its pressed into the bearing and the cv axle meant for the hub in side, it shouldn't need to be too thick right?? Does anyone have an input? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 and the cv axle meant for the hub in side What CV axle? Are you going to use a Legacy rear outer CV? Hhhmmm..... maybe but I doubt it will work. Then you have to consider the brake parts.... What backing plate will you use and what rotor/caliper bracket, etc? Shaving off 1/16" of OD on the hub will probably not be a concern.... but you are making a one-off part here. Replaceability is a concern. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyter1983 Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) I have a machinist friend who says that he can cut, slightly taper(for a stronger weld) and weld the Legacy cv axles to the proper length. Once I get the rear diff back in place, I can get a proper measurement from diff to hub. As for the back plates, rotors and calipers, I'm going to drill holes in the Legacy back plates to line up with the threaded holes on the Brat knuckle. That way I can use the Legacy rotors and calipers. Since I'm using the Legacy transmission and front steering knuckle, I need the Legacy front cv axles shortened as well. So tomorrow my goal is to get the engine, tranny and rear diff mounted up so that I can take my measurements. Then I will give him the 4 cv axles, the rear hubs and the rear wheel bearings with some numbers and hope he can work his magic. Edited February 6, 2012 by lyter1983 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyter1983 Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 Shaving off 1/16" of OD on the hub will probably not be a concern.... but you are making a one-off part here. Replaceability is a concern. GD If it works, I will have the exact diameters to have a new Legacy hubs machined to fit. And the lengths to cut new cv axles to. Or just rebuild the cv axles now that I have learned how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) I have a machinist friend who says that he can cut, slightly taper(for a stronger weld) and weld the Legacy cv axles to the proper length. That never really works out well in practice. The problem is that the bar (the axle shaft) is hardened and unless you anneal it, weld it, and then re-harden it.... high likelyhood of cracking and stress fractures later on if not immediately. I've talked with CV axle specialists and have considered that option with many of them. The consensus is that it's not safe and should not be attempted. Welding of hardened steels is very tricky. Generally speaking it's a bad idea. Custom bars in any length with any desired splines are in the neighborhood of about $200 each for onesy twosy type jobs. $60 each for 50 or more from one source I talked to. Even at $200 each - cheaper than most people's 5 lug rims per-unit cost. Really not that bad in the scheme of things. And the bar itself is not a wear item or likely to ever be damaged. For that price - you couldn't pay a good machinist to try and weld two seperate axles together... consider the cost of the axles and the labor! Not worth it. Just buy custom bars... or... I am in the process of having custom inner CV races (the "star") made up by RCV Performance so a Legacy outer joint (specifically NTN# 87LAC) will mate with a Brat front axle. We are having 24 races made - 12 cars worth. We will be offering about 8 sets for sale here within a month. The price per-unit is much more manageable than making custom bars so we opted for this approach. XT6 hubs are not that hard to source. There's at least two sets for certain on www.car-part.com for about $50 each piece and a couple possibles - might be XT4 units. Have to call and confirm. Very little reason to do what you are proposing. I've been researching the EA81 five lug swap for several months and I've pretty much got all the details worked out. GD Edited February 6, 2012 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyter1983 Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 XT6 hubs are not that hard to source. There's at least two sets for certain on www.car-part.com for about $50 each piece and a couple possibles - might be XT4 units. Have to call and confirm. GD Thank you soooo much for this link! I don't know how I didn't find it myself.. I've been searching 6+hrs a night. I've already gotten 3 quotes that sound affordable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyter1983 Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) What type of cv axle will I need to use with the Legacy transmission and front hubs? I tried to take the ends off the Legacy axles and put them on the bars of the brat axles but the insides are different. I'm not sure of all the terminology so if you could fill me in on what the name of these pieces that would be much appreciated and very helpful. Is this the race? Edited February 8, 2012 by lyter1983 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 You will need an NTN Legacy outer joint with the part number 87LAC on it. The races we are making will match the guts of the 87LAC to the 23 spline Brat axle bar. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyter1983 Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Are you making inner and outer races? I haven't taken the outer race apart yet. not sure if it will fit on the brat bar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Are you making inner and outer races? I haven't taken the outer race apart yet. not sure if it will fit on the brat bar? Inner joints that fit the Brat bar are available in both 23 and 25 spline DOJ cups. Outer legacy style joints are not - that is why we are building these conversion races. There is no other options besides custom outer joint inner races or custom bars. I've already done all the research and I can tell you for certain that is the case. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyter1983 Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 I don't doubt you at all, I'm just trying to get informed. I just want my Brat back on the road.. Starting to think I bit off more than I can chew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 It's definitely a process that takes time. We are waiting on the production of our races. When they are here we will be offering them for sale. $100 per set. Each set will build two front axles. We aren't even making any money off them - just covering our research, production and shipping costs. It's $1000 to run off 12 cars worth of these races. That was a minimum order and we only need 4 sets for our personal use and what's been spoken for by local friends. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyter1983 Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 ok. Let me know as soon as they are ready. The sooner the better! I'm driving my bosses chevy 1500 and it eats gas... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86hatchback Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 GD: Since your having custom races made does this mean that combining the EMPI shafts is a no go? Last I'd heard this was a workable option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 GD: Since your having custom races made does this mean that combining the EMPI shafts is a no go? Last I'd heard this was a workable option. Jacob was told it would work by the EMPI axle "guru" in CA. Turns out it does not work. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyter1983 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 I have 6 or 7 extra Brat cv axles that I have now taken apart but none of the bars fit the Legacy races. The first 2 I took apart, the bar a larger diameter. Some have the right diameter as the Legacy races but different spline counts. I have large diameter Brat bars with 23 spline count, smaller Brat bars with 23 spline count and Legacy bars(same diameter as small Brat bars) have 25 spline count. Is there a 3rd Brat bar with the small diameter and 25 spline count? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyter1983 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 And as far as the rear differential goes. This kinda surprised me. The Brat rear diff has splined shafts that protrude from it, the Legacy rear cv axle ends have the splined shafts that insert into the Legacy rear diff. Will I need to use the rear diff from the Brat with the xt6 rear stub axles? From the pictures I've found of the xt6 stub axles, they appear to have the same ends as the Brat cv axles. From what I've found so far in my research, both the Brat and Legacy rear diffs are 3.900's. Not sure if there is a difference between the two, I don't know much of anything about rear differentials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 All Brat (EA81) axle bars have the 23 spline outer joint interface. Legacy joints are either 22, 25, or 30 spline. You don't use any of the XT6 stuff in the rear except the hub, rotor, backing plate, and caliper/bracket. Everything else is left EA81. The XT6 and EA81 (and EA82) hubs all use the same interface and all swap. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyter1983 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) ok. That sounds promising. So I would use the Brat's rear differential. How about the front? I was planning on using the Legacy 5spd full time AWD transmission, the Legacy steering knuckles and 5 lug hubs. How can I make cv axles the correct length with the correct ends? Edited February 8, 2012 by lyter1983 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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