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95 legacy 2.2 swap into 00 2.5rs


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42 replies to this topic

#1 imprezajunkie

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 03:57 AM

for having a sticky about how often 2.2 are put into 2.5's, I can't find a thread on all the ins and outs of doing it. lol. I;m going to copy and paste from another forum I posted on:

My 00 2.5rs motor blew (rod bearing) and I have a 95 legacy wagon with a 2.2. I'm looking to swap but info is hard to find, everything is 2.5 into 2.2 cars. using some backwards logic I have come up with the following and wish it to be confirmed:
My 95 2.2 is phase 1 while my 2.5 is phase 2 I think. I'm pretty sure they are both SOHC but haven't checked the 2.2 yet. I can retain use of my 2.5 ecu and wiring if I change the cam and crank gears on the 2.2 to the ones on my 2.5. I can use the intake off the 2.5 to use those sensors as I think my 2.5 is MAP and the 95 MAF.

The hitch is, I also want to swap the legacy 5mt in place of my 2.5rs' 4eat. so, I'm not sure if I can use the 2.5 ecu since its an auto ecu. I think the final drive is 4.44 for my auto and 4.11 on the 95 5mt I have so I need to swap the rear diff from the 95 as well (losing my LSD). still don't know if the 2.5rs axles are compatible with the 95 diff. WIll my 2.2 ecu plug into my 2.5rs engin harness? since the entire drivtrain will be for that ecu anyway, that would be a blessing if it would be plug and play. is a manual 2.5rs ecu able to work easier? finally if I do have to use my 2.2 engine harness as well as the ecu, please tell me the 2.5 body harness will plug into that ecu. the wiring is what I fear the most.lol

if anyone can confirm anything I have said or just tell me how to do this swap, it will be greatly appreciated as I am hearing a lot of different things from threads I have read. this is my understanding so far. direct me to links, anything that can clarify what needs to be done to make this work. If my rs was a phase 1 motor i would be set but of course I have the phase 2 SOHC 2.5.

#2 987687

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 11:16 AM

The 2.2 will not swap. Electrically it's completely different, the 2.5 intake manifold will not swap onto the 2.2.
The 5mt should work, it'll probably only have 4 bell housing bolts, but that's not a big deal.
You'll need matching rear end, crossmember, impreza 5mt driveshaft (legacy one is too long), and of course pedal box, clutch stuff, and interior trim.

#3 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 11:20 AM

You can do it but you will need to make custom manifold adaptors to fit the 2.5 manifold to the 2.2 heads.

GD

#4 ccrinc

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 12:56 PM

Aside from all the other issues electrically/electronically, the simplest thing to do is retain the 2.2 intake manifold, but swap all the wiring from the 2.5 manifold to the 2.2 manifold. This works: I know.

That said, I have yet to meet or talk to anyone who has done a successful swap of the kind you are considering. There were so many changes between '95 and 2000. While the crank gear will probably fit, I'm doubtful that the left cam gear will even bolt on. Then you have to consider the fact that the timing belt is different: will it fit the right cam gear, plus the idlers and tensioners, and it is the correct length?

You have to use the correct ECU for the engine wiring. And no, the 2.2 wiring won't plug into the 2.5 wiring. Wiring wise: it's pretty much all or nothing.

Back to your 2000 engine: you say it "blew" due to rod bearing. Did it throw a rod? Or just spin the bearing? If you didn't throw a rod, my suggestion would be to have your shortblock gone through. You're setting yourself up for more frustration than I can even begin to imagine and more than I'm sure you can imagine.

If by some miracle, you do manage to frankenstein this all together, you'd better provide a ton of pics and documentation for future reference!

#5 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 01:32 PM

I have seen it done the other direction - that is phase-II into phase-I. Specifically taking a phase-II 2.5 and putting it in a '95 Impreza. This was done by fitting the '95 1.8 manifold to the 2.5 heads using custom adaptors and then using the 1.8 cam and crank sprockets.

If you can do it that direction, then it can be done the other direction. Using the 2.5 wireing harness on the 2.2 manifold...... well that might work but the 2.2 manifold uses a totally different idle control system so I'm dubious as to how that would play out. Besides that the 2.5 manifold flows a lot better so building adaptor plates to mate the 2.5 manifold to the older heads would be the way I would do it.

Pretty sure the crank and cam sprockets will in fact swap.

GD

#6 imprezajunkie

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:29 PM

ok, the ONLY reason I was going to put that 2.2 in is because I already have the donor legacy. I was hoping it was going to be easy but apparently not since a have the 99+ style motor. the trans isn't that great either so I might as well try to get another 99+ engine from someone whos swapping to turbo and get a junked impreza for the 5spd. thanks for all the insight guys. If only I had a 98 rs.

as for my rod bearing, I knew it was going. it was slight knock which became a major knock. since I didn't have another car, I just drove it. then 1 day it was really low on power and I was close to my house so I kept downshifting to go 15mph while the motor sounded more and more like sticking metal into a garbage disposal until it finally stalled and would not start again. so, I think the engine is just scrap at this point.

#7 987687

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:34 PM

You had better hope you can get that engine to turn over again. One revolution is all you need. Otherwise getting it off the automatic is going to be hell. Ask me how I know....

#8 imprezajunkie

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:51 PM

^did not occur to me. is it possible to lift the trans and engine togther in a subaru? I'm more of a rwd drive guy, not sure on awd. I'm pretty sure the engine is locked up though.

ok so new consideration: if I just drop the 2.2 in with everything 2.2 and use the 2.2 engine harness and ecu, will my body harness operate everything properly off a 95 2.2 ecu? how much repinning is required, I'm assuming it needs a lot and a new plug to the ecu. what about my TCM, since I'm going manual as well, should I swap that for a manual 2.5rs TCM or perhaps use the 2.2's? still contemplating if its worth putting a 166k mile (and climbing) 2.2 in but it is non interference so it'll last 200k easy if I do timing belt kit and head gaskets. more work then I ever wanted to do but I don't want another 2.5 and I already have this wagon. decisions...

#9 987687

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:55 PM

There is absolutely no reason to swap wiring harnesses. You'd have to rip the dash out and re-wire the car.
You could pull the engine and transmission together probably, it would be a steep angle, but probably possible.

I opted for the 'cutting the bell housing off' option.

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#10 imprezajunkie

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:02 PM

I don't really have a problem with ripping the dash out. but doesn't the engine harness just go from the ecu, through the firewall, into the engine compartment? and wouldn't I just have to repin the body harness right there at the plug to the ecu? or am I vastly over simplifying this.lol. I don't know much on wiring. most of it comes from helping a friend with his nissan 240sx wiring and that seemed to be how it went but he might have gotten rid of some unnessesary wires too. just treat me as a noob where wiring and elctrical is concerned.

thats a nice...uh... "method" for gtting the trans off btw.lol, I hope I can just pop the engine off of mine. if not then maybe with it out of the car w can get it off.

#11 987687

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:20 PM

If you don't get the torque converter bolts out, you have to pull the TQ with the engine.
I've heard mixed stuff whether or not you can do this in car. Basically, if you can pull the engine far enough forward, or get the angle steep enough to get the TQ out. As this is a good way to ruin the input shafts I opted not to do it.
Once I figured out a good method for chewing material off the motor, it only took about 2.5 hours.

You are making the wiring sound a lot more simple than it would be.
Also, if you have to pass emissions, likely you wouldn't be able to pass with that setup. 96, and therefor probably 95 had a problem with the computer where it never set the readyness monitors in the computer. I know that in Maine, at least, 96 subarus are exempt from emissions checks with OBD2 because of this.

If you're going to re-wire for a swap that's not worth it, why not just do a turbo swap instead :D

#12 95legwagon

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:34 PM

i happen to have the number of a guy who i was told is selling a 00 rs if you were interested...... its in milford connecticut though...... not sure where derby is though......

#13 imprezajunkie

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:43 PM

^I'm in northern vt. on canadien border pretty much. I have no money really. so unless its like 500 then I'm not intrested.

I don't have to pass emissions. just a visual for the check engine light. and I can rest that for inspection. I have a guy that just throws stickers in as long as its safe and no visual duct tap.lol, I have a 86 rx7 so ask me how I know that one. and no turbo swap, thats too much and this is a daily I just want running again. I'm broke as well so I'm just working with what I got. I have a low paying job and a 3 yr old so it takes me around a year to save 500 for random crap (other then tax refund which usually goes toward maintenence of cars.). My rx7 is the turbo drift project because its a hell of a lot cheaper and a hell of a lot easier to rebuild a rotary engine.

on different forums people are telling me all kinds of things. I can use my 2.5 harnss cu, I can't. I can swap the 2.5 intake on. I can't. I guess it comes down to how many people agree with each side. remember, this is a phase 1 to phase 2 swap, not the same phase engines

Edited by imprezajunkie, 20 February 2012 - 09:48 PM.


#14 987687

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:49 PM

The people that are saying you can swap intake manifolds and use the same ECU are confused.
With a phase TWO ej22, they would be correct. Phase2 manifolds will swap between the 2.2 and 2.5, and use the same computer.

Phase1 and phase2 intake manifolds do NOT just bolt up, and the wiring does NOT just connect together.
You can bolt a phase1 engine in there, but the wiring will not just hook up.
As GD said, you could make an adapter to bolt the 2.5 intake onto your phase1 2.2. That would work, but you'd need to have that machined, or weld something up yourself.

#15 3Pin

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:58 PM

How about sell the donor 95 2.2 and buy a phase II motor with the $$?

Edited by 3Pin, 20 February 2012 - 09:59 PM.
spelling


#16 95legwagon

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:04 PM

so i understand what yall are sayin.....why cant he take the ej22 block and just bolt all the ej25 stuff on.....it may be a loss in compression due to using the 2.5 heads on the 2.2...... but arent the blocks and internals the same? wouldnt that be the cheapest and easiest (well....if he does it himself)

and idk how much he wanted for it..... he's also got a 94? svx for sale too lol

#17 987687

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:06 PM

Sure, the 2.5 heads would bolt to the 2.2 block. But I have no idea what that would do to compression, or anything like that.
Someone should chime in who knows more about that.
I do know he'd have to swap the crank gear over to make it work.

#18 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:30 PM

You can pull the engine with the TC attached quite easily. I just did an '03 Baja like this today. You just carefully pull the engine forward and then slip the oil pump drive sleeve off the TC. Then remove from engine bay as normal.

Then you can drill out the flex-plate to TC bolts from the back. Much easier than cutting the bell-housing away like that - probably took me a whole 20 minutes..... You get points for creativity though :drunk:

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 20 February 2012 - 10:35 PM.


#19 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:31 PM

You can't bolt 2.5 heads to a 2.2 block. The fire ring on the 2.2 gasket is smaller than the combustion chambers on the 2.5 heads and will not seal.

All you need to make adaptor plates is:

Used 2.5 and 2.2 gaskets
Scrap 1/2" aluminium plate.
Drill bits.
Hole saws.
Drill press.
Die grinder and carbide burrs.
Lots of spare time.

No welding or machining required.

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 20 February 2012 - 10:34 PM.


#20 imprezajunkie

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 07:33 PM

so what in your opinions is the easiest way to do this? I know its not going to be simple anyway but humor me. I'd rather not use the 2.5 heads if I can help it because I would assume I would lose a lot of torque and I live in a hilly area so slightly worse mpg.

Am I correct in assuming that the 99+ are all phase 2 engines and are all interference type? I'd rather have one of the phase 1 engines although I guess I can use the better head gaskets on a phase 2 2.2.

#21 WoodsWagon

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 04:59 PM

A 2000 2.5rs is a phase 2 SOHC 2.5l. Its pretty much a completely different engine than a 95 EJ22. The 95 EJ22's are great for swapping in place of the phase 1 DOHC 2.5l's in the 98 and older cars. You could sell it for probably $300 for that purpose.

The wiring is different, the cam and crank sensor tooth patterns are different, and you'd have to butcher the hell out of things to get it to work. Not worth it. Just find a phase 2 EJ25 out of a 99+ forester or 2000+ legacy or outback.

Here's one in Conway NH you could pick up. http://nh.craigslist...2840903944.html
He wants $500 for both engine and 5mt, so you could probably get jus the engine for $350.

Edited by WoodsWagon, 23 February 2012 - 11:47 PM.


#22 imprezajunkie

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:50 AM

wow, the prices I was seeing were like 1000+ just for 99+ engines. 2.2 and 2.5's. is there a mod a can do to a 2.5 to oil the bearings better? I know its a common problem so that was why I was also wanting to go 2.2. I'm currently out of a job but hope to have one soon else I would jump at that offer. I have tax refund but I need to keep it for now until I find work.

the 99+ 2.2 should be plug and play as well as long as I use the matching ecu right?

and I need the wagon, its our only car right now so can't sell it until I have another car ready.

#23 WoodsWagon

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 03:00 AM

Yes, but the 2.2's are harder to find and there's no advantage to them over the 2.5l. My cousins well cared for 2000 2.2 outback sport chucked a rod through the block while still full of oil.

#24 imprezajunkie

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 04:14 AM

I might just swap over the engine harness and 2.2 ecu form my 95. parts are cheaper and more available in my area and they are more reliable it seems. I know plenty of people that beat on there older subies and they have 250k+ miles on them.

I think it will be worth it despite the extra work involved. although I hate wiring, I can read a wiring diagram. I guess I'll just have to suck it, if I need to strip the interior and rewire the whole car I guess I will do it. phase 2 engines just aren't worth it from what I have read.

#25 imprezajunkie

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 05:12 AM

^* I meant "I'll have to suck it up" lol. that went horribly wrong.

I've been doing a lot of reading and searching. a lot of the phase 2 2.5 are having the same problems I had i.e. spun bearings and throwing rods and all that. I know that I had gold/copper flakes (like fine sand sized) in my oil when the initial knocking started. I put it up for a while but no funds to fix it. then I needed it for winter and it just kept losing power for like 4 blocks. I was almost home but it stalled and wouldn't start again. I think that I not only spun a bearing but threw a rod.

I guess the point is, I don't want to deal with this issue again if there are steps to go a more reliable route. I am very low middle class (i.e. I can barely pay my bills and I don't even have cable, internet, and am in an apt with my girlfriend and 3 yr old daughter) so I can't fix things if they break really. my brother pretty much gave me the wagon for $500 and trade for our 02 buick century that had a blown head gasket as well as a long list of other problems. (worse car I've owned and got from a stealership, my $1500 86 rx7 has been more reliable and only needed $200 of parts in 3 years as well as my 2.5rs giving my 6 years of reliable service).

What do you all think my 2.5rs is worth. its an auto all stock except a $400 alpine head unit, a pyle 7 band parametric eq, pyle 2000 watt 4 channel amp running 2 6x9 in back and 5 1/4 in front. obviously a "blown" engine. 4 inch rust area on 1 qtr panel, rust starting on the other. 1 fender is a little dinged up and rusty around the wheel side as my wheel rubbed against it when I hit black ice and bent the control arm back. interior has nicks and scratches so 7/10 I'd say. its silver and paint is decent with some rock chips here and there. I don't think I'll get enough to motivate me to sell it personally.




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