trialsguy Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I am afraid I am in trouble but I thought I would ask for some help. I have read hear in the threads that some 97' year were non interference engines. Where do I find the id on what engine I have? I removed the covers to find a timing belt wrapped around the crank shaft and the problem gets worse as my son who was driving kept trying to start in un-knowing that he could be causing damage. engine has 266k and I haven't changed the belt and we got it at 180k. Here is what worries me. I was turning the driver side cam to line up the marks and it stopped solid and would not turn any farther, so I went to the crank and lined it up, then went to passenger side and lined it up the back to the driver side and was able to turn it to the marks. Then I realized that I had used the wrong marks on the crank so I adjusted it. Then I went back to the driver side and noticed that it was not on the marks, when I went to line it back up it wouldn't turn. I don't think I can get a complete revolution out of it. And also how are you guys turning the cam pulleys and the crank pulley? I am have a difficult time trying to get them turned. I haven't removed the spark plugs but I may. He had just pulled away from the curb when it died. even if it was a interference engine could we have gotten lucky if it broke the belt and wasn't able to do anymore damage by continually trying to start it? Thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal_look_zero Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 97 IS interference, sorry to say. Sounds like some chewed up valves are causing the head to bind up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) Valves are almost certainly bent. If you can't get the pulleys lined up for a belt install you will have to pull the heads to find out the extent of the damage. If you are lucky you will just have to replace a few valves. If you can get the belt on it you can do a compression test. But that's not always definitive. If a valve is only a little tweaked the seat and spring will pull it into alignment every time it closes and eventually the head of the valve will break off from the constant flexing of the stem. Then you will have to find another engine. Once a valve gets sucked into the bore - it's over. Broken/cracked pistons, gouged up cylinder walls, etc. GD Edited March 15, 2012 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsguy Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 Ok, new information, after reading through more of the threads and a little better search, I found that I had the crank in the wrong position, I was using the arrow instead of the hatch mark, And now the key way is in the 6 o'clock position, and now the best part, I can freely turn either cam pulley with out interference or it locking up. Here is what I am thinking, I am going to get the new belt and put it on and see if it fires up and run ok. If so I may change the water pump or I may not. All the idlers and water pump feel smooth. Also the dang bolts on the plastic shrouds spun on a couple and cracked the plastic, besides buying new plastic has anyone ran longer bolts thru and put nut and a washer on back side to get it to work ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 You really want to risk having a slightly bent valve that may break in 10k miles and destroy the engine? For the price of $100 in gaskets and possibly some $15 valves? You are a bigger gambler than I. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsguy Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 Well when you say it like that it doesn't sound so good, but if you were to see this old beat down wagon you would wonder why anyone would spend a dime on it. LOL I will do some reading on head work and valve replacement. thanks for your time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal_look_zero Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 GD sometimes forgets that not everyone is capable of doing their own major engine work/pulling their engine. I guess the heads could be pulled in car, but yick. If it's a POS old battlewagon, then just throw a new belt at it and drive it until it blows up. But if you plan on getting a lot more life out of it, pulls the heads and check the valves. Do a gasket and timing set from eBay while you're in there (they work fine if installed correctly) and have the peace of mind of knowing that the engine is less likely to blow up from sucking a valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsguy Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 can I take the heads off without removing the engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal_look_zero Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 can I take the heads off without removing the engine? Physically possible? Yes But I wouldn't do it. Too tight a fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsguy Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 Thanks, I think what I will do tomorrow is pull the plugs and force air in the cylinders to hear if I get any leakage past the valves, that will at least tell me if I have any major bendage or not. I do feel better that I can rotate the cam 360 without locking up. I may check into the ebay kits. I am capable of working on cars and have for years, have a couple old cars I am restoring now but I have no experience in the Subaru, everything is tight. I had looked at a shop manual on changing timing gears from a mechanic buddy of mine and in this particular manual it listed the 97 2.2 as a free wheeling engine, meaning non interference but upon farther investigation, meaning here, I found that it wasn't so now I need to rethink my thought process and decide if this car is work a couple extra bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 This depends on the model and variant of the engine for the 1997 model year. I have had non-interference 97 brighton with roller rocker vavetrain, and single port exhaust. The outback probably is interference. the wikepidia page on subaru ej series engine breaks it down pretty well which engine is in which model for which year, and weird production overlaps between mdels and years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) The Subaru dealers ONLY pull heads with the engine in the car. They must spend a lot on those lower back support belts. I wouldn't do it but many people have and the dealer does them that way. Personally I'm not in that much of a hurry and I prefer the overall higher quality job that's done by pulling the engine. GD Edited March 15, 2012 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsguy Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 I found on the hood a sticker with numbers and engine family VFJ2.2VJGKEK can someone tell from this what engine I have. I have already decided it is a interference engine just trying to figure out which one. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) use the front section of the drive shaft from the 5 speed.so now we know the max life of a timing belt on a 97 ej22. line up the timing marks and hang a belt on it. if it runs like crap you have bent valves. if it runs ok, you got lucky. for more piece of mind do a compression & leak down test. you usually will have a bad idler or something else tyhat caused the belt to fail. but if the belt was ''not new'' when you bought the car it could be the belt. any ide when the T-belt was last done? if you didn't ''force'' the engine by hand when it stopped you probably didn't do any extra damage, but you never know. worst case, you throw the car away. next worst, you replace the head gaskets. how much would you spend to get another car that will serve your needs?? that is your budget for repairing this one, regardless of the value of the car. good luck. Edited March 15, 2012 by johnceggleston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsguy Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) Did you determine that it was a ej22 from the numbers I listed or you are just familiar with the engines. I wouldn't think that I did further damage turning the cam by hand until it stopped, who knows, I will have time tonight to check it out more. No Idea when the belt was last done, I have a idea that it had been done or was attempted anyway because the front and side cover where the 10mm bolts attach, some of them were cracked already from spinning in their housing. I wasn't worried about the belt because I thought that the engine was a non interference engine and to be honest I didn't think the car would last as long as it has with a 16 year old driver and already having somewhere around 200k miles. Thanks guys Edited March 15, 2012 by trialsguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 so now we know the max life of a timing belt on a 97 ej22. line up the timing marks and hang a belt on it. if it runs like crap you have bent valves. if it runs ok, you got lucky. for more piece of mind do a compression & leak down test. That won't neccesarily show a valve that's just been slightly bent at the stem just below the face. They will still seal but the flexing back and forth durring closing and opening will cause the head of the valve to break off some number of thousands of miles from now. The engine is an EJ22 Phase-I and it IS interferance. If it ran decent before this then just do a HG and timing belt job on it and check out all the valves. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoupedUpSubie Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I believe all 4 cylinder legacys are ej series engines. If you want confirmation for yourself look at the block in the area between the power steering pump and alternator. It will say EJ22 on it, its cast in so it will be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsguy Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 another quick question, I have installed the belt minus the tension er, All the hash marks were lined up when I installed the belt, on the driver side cam pulley the white mark on the belt was kinda in between the tooth like it wasn't marked in the right location. so once installed, the white mark on the belt is 1 tooth clockwise from the hash mark on the pulley and the mark on the engine. there was a little slack on that side when I put it on and I am wondering if I should have left the slack in the belt and let the tension er take it out once it is installed. Does this make sense? I have the belt on and the marks on the pulleys are all lined up just not the driver-side white mark on the belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Count the teeth between the marks. If you haven't done one of these before that's the quickest method to check your work. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsguy Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 Thank you, are they suppose to be even or is there a set amount per side. I have seen this mentioned but dont remember. I will do a search for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsguy Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 Welp, passenger side rear cylinder has zero compression passenger side front cylinder has 85psi driver side rear has 145psi driver side front has zero I was hoping just one side would be bent but it looks like both are banged up. It wasnt a power house for sure and it does have 280k on it. I have to wonder if the 85psi is a leaking valve as well, or just wore out. I will have to think on it for a couple days, If I could just pop both sides off and put 100 bucks worth of parts on it and pop it back on I would do it. But looking at it nothing is going to just pop off and on and so far every bolt has fought me coming off. That 85psi is bugging me. Thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 did you use the correct timing marks? never the arrows. you can buy heads for about $100 each, or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccrinc Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Honestly, I would recommend finding a donor engine for your car. Any work you do to the heads, especially valves, is going to raise the compression ratio. With the number of miles on that engine, it's not a matter of "if" but "how soon" the rod bearings will give out and that will be a waste of $100 and your time plus busted knuckles. At 283K, that engine is nearing the end of its life expectancy. Put that money toward a decent junkyard engine. Any year from '96 to '98 will work as long as you match the EGR. We're Subaru engine remanufacturers, and I am offering you the same advice I would offer anyone who called our shop and told me what you have here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 At 283K, that engine is nearing the end of its life expectancy. That really depends on how well it's been cared for - mostly as that applies to oil changes, etc. I've got customers with over 300k on EJ22's that are still perfect inside due to excellent maintenance and the use of synthetic oil. Though it *sounds* like it's been basically abused and neglected so that statement is probably true in this case. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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