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No AWD steelership diagnosed as duty c and clutch pack, replaced but still NO AWD


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110 replies to this topic

#1 bluedotsnow

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:45 AM

so let me start by saying if I had known that any other parts could cause the AWD of my 4EAT not to function I would never have let them diagnose the car and in fact asked them before and after what parts could fail rendering the AWD system not functional. they were vague at best. they reported after a "multi point FORD" inspection, WAIT I THOUGHT I WENT TO A SUBARU DEALER!!!!!! that the duty c solenoid, transfer clutch pack, gaskets and pipe needed to be replaced. when I nearly fainted at there quote of $1197 for parts and labor they said I "declined service at the time", all I did was say I didn't have all the money they wanted for any other procedure THAT DAY.

I saved $500 on parts and labor through subaruparts.com and a licensed independent repair shop. after getting it off the lift and test driving it the TCU no longer output the code and the shifting characteristics changed for the better as it was not going into limp or safe mode. so I thought it was fixed having no mud or snow to get stuck in and not being an rump roast hat of a driver I wanted to just get around and save some money not push the car I had just bought and put head gaskets on.... so along came some rain and I tested my newly repaired "AWD" to my horror I only spun one front wheel. casually illuminating an abs light after some time spent heating my tire rubber. some guy who helped my look at the car said something about resistance needing to be put on the front wheels for the rears to spin properly..... I'd love more info on that if any one has it..... so effectively the dealership's recommended service fixed electrical problem.... that's exactly what they said when I returned and denied any liability for my AWD problems. stating I only asked them about a flashing at oil temp light. denied that I asked them to diagnose the AWD system. WAIT I THOUGHT THE DUTY C SOLENOID AND CLUTCH PACKS WERE PART OF THE AWD SYSTEM!?! they asked for first $170 then back to $136+tax for another diagnosis after the cops showed up. there are alot of holes in there story like at times when speaking with a subaru of america representative the dealership denied giving me a multipoint inspection, I have the paperwork.... they stating if I HAD wanted an AWD diagnostic I should have requested a multipoint inspection. I did not ask for one but got it anyway and am glad I did for PROOF! they told me how my battery was doing and that I had only half a tank of windshield washer fluid, tire tread depths.... oh and a small section for thing like breaks, engine, trans..... and they indicated my "trans" was fine with thorough slash in a green box. they did put a line through all three green, yellow, red boxes for "clutch operation (if equiped)" indicating a problem.... wait clutches aren't electrical solenoids. worse yet the parts that came out of the car looked fine! the clutch packs were almost spotless not having any damage from misuse. so why did they tell me to replace the clutch packs and that this was only a diagnostic of an electrical error? seems to me they could have told me to drop a new trans in it. I can get a used one for around what they wanted for parts and labor which would have included all the parts I ordered and installed along with a 5 year warranty. I think they wanted to push some service hours and was actually told my one of the officers that came down to remove me after I said I would not leave because I was not satisfied told me "buyer beware" THIS IS A SUBARU DEALERSHIP!!! it did not help that the shop also serviced the police forces vehicles being a FORD DEALERSHIP, I felt some bias...so I'm talking to the Bureau of Automotive Repair who are behind me. subaru of america ended up taking the same position as the service manager, not a clue, and denied any more help. so I want to warn anyone who has these AWD problems and will update with my solution to the problem, I WILL FIX MY AWD!!!! new trans or not! any help or advice is very much appreciated!

Edited by bluedotsnow, 24 March 2012 - 04:09 PM.
edited for accuracy


#2 Red92

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 02:27 AM

Paragraphs please? :popcorn:

#3 mattocs

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 02:42 AM

Name and location of this dealership?

#4 johnceggleston

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 04:24 AM

do you have a cel on the dash?

#5 WoodsWagon

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 05:22 AM

A/T temp light was flashing
I nearly fainted at there quote of $1197 for parts and labor at dealer.
I saved $500 on parts and labor through subaruparts.com and a licensed independent repair shop. Test driving it the TCU no longer output the code and the shifting characteristics changed for the better.

So along came some rain and I tested my newly repaired "AWD" to my horror I only spun one front wheel.

So effectively the dealership's recommended service fixed electrical problem.... that's exactly what they said when I returned and denied any liability for my AWD problems. stating I only asked them about a flashing at oil temp light.
You got a preliminary diagnosis from a dealer and then went to an independent shop to have it fixed. You should be going back to the independent shop to have them figure out why it isn't working, not screaming at the dealer until they have the cops haul you out. They didn't do the work. It could easily be the work of the other shop that's causing your continued problems, not a misdiagnosis by the dealer.

They told me how my battery was doing and that I had only half a tank of windshield washer fluid, tire tread depths.... oh and a small section for thing like breaks, engine, trans..... and they indicated my "trans" was fine with thorough slash in a green box. they did put a line through all three green, yellow, red boxes for "clutch operation (if equiped)" indicating a problem.... wait clutches aren't electrical solenoids are.
Multipoint inspections won't catch everything, and if the car drove into the shop and the fluid didn't smell burnt and was full, the trans would check out as fine. The clutch checkbox is for manual trans cars, and has nothing to do with the AWD rear transfer clutch.

worse yet the parts that came out of the car looked fine! the clutch packs were almost spotless not having any damage from misuse. so why did they tell me to replace the clutch packs and that this was only a diagnostic of an electrical error?
The work to fix a failed Duty C solenoid which is what was causing the A/T temp light to flash is the same as doing the transfer clutch pack. It's one of those things where you might as well replace all the wear parts while you're in there because the cost of parts vs doing the labor twice isn't worth it.


Rather than screaming and yelling and getting hauled off by the cops trying to place blame on the dealership, you might want to question the work your cheap shop turned out.

#6 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:49 AM

when I nearly fainted at there quote of $1197 for parts and labor they said I "declined service at the time" I saved $500 on parts and labor through subaruparts.com and a licensed independent repair shop.


The DEALERSHIP didn't do the repair. You took it elsewhere which means any inspection of parts durring the repair process that would have indicated a failure in another location (such as pristene clutch pack plates) was invisible to them. The shop you had do the actual work is to blame for not looking at that clutch pack and seeing it obviously in good condition - this would indicate that a failed duty-c should have been causing torque bind - not a loss of AWD.

They gave their best estimate of the problem - which was clearly a failed duty-c solenoid due to the code. The usual repair path on a problem of that nature is to replace the duty-c and the clutch pack while you are in there. You can't hold them responsible for reccomending what any shop would reccomend under those circumstances. For all they knew the duty-c had been out for long enough to destroy the clutch pack. That's what any reasonable mechanic would have assumed and since you DID have a bad duty-c solenoid..... their repair path was 100% valid.

You are just angry over what amounts to bad luck. Anyone here and any Subaru shop in the country would have reccomended the EXACT same thing. Now if you had the dealer do the work they probably would have seen the pristene clutch pack, not replaced it, and told you that the electrical problem is solved but the AWD system is still not working properly.

It is possible that you simply have a bad TCU due to a prolonged bad duty-c. The duty-c driver circuit could have failed and now the transmission is fine but the TCU can't activate the AWD..... or your FWD fuse is installed.

In any case you have NO REASON to be angry with anyone but the repair shop that blindly installed a clutch pack you didn't need - which could only be known once they had the old one out. The dealer certainly is not at fault and they were totally in the right to have you forcibly removed from the premisis.

GD

#7 ivans imports

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:51 AM

I do the awd clutch pack all the time i identify the problem by puting car on steep gravel hill giver and see if spins rear>does it work instantly if yes than ok if not at all soiliniond or clutch pack if slow to come on clutch pack if shudders clutch pack try going for a 20 km drive with fwd fuse in thiss will flushout the awd circut may help my first step to diagnosis.

#8 bluedotsnow

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:27 PM

The DEALERSHIP didn't do the repair. You took it elsewhere which means any inspection of parts durring the repair process that would have indicated a failure in another location (such as pristene clutch pack plates) was invisible to them. The shop you had do the actual work is to blame for not looking at that clutch pack and seeing it obviously in good condition - this would indicate that a failed duty-c should have been causing torque bind - not a loss of AWD.

They gave their best estimate of the problem - which was clearly a failed duty-c solenoid due to the code. The usual repair path on a problem of that nature is to replace the duty-c and the clutch pack while you are in there. You can't hold them responsible for reccomending what any shop would reccomend under those circumstances. For all they knew the duty-c had been out for long enough to destroy the clutch pack. That's what any reasonable mechanic would have assumed and since you DID have a bad duty-c solenoid..... their repair path was 100% valid.

You are just angry over what amounts to bad luck. Anyone here and any Subaru shop in the country would have reccomended the EXACT same thing. Now if you had the dealer do the work they probably would have seen the pristene clutch pack, not replaced it, and told you that the electrical problem is solved but the AWD system is still not working properly.

It is possible that you simply have a bad TCU due to a prolonged bad duty-c. The duty-c driver circuit could have failed and now the transmission is fine but the TCU can't activate the AWD..... or your FWD fuse is installed.

In any case you have NO REASON to be angry with anyone but the repair shop that blindly installed a clutch pack you didn't need - which could only be known once they had the old one out. The dealer certainly is not at fault and they were totally in the right to have you forcibly removed from the premisis.

GD

first of all I have every right! regardless of what is on the paperwork I asked these people to tell me what was wrong with the AWD system they said they could do that with this diagnostic.

at least I expected them to put it on a lift and verify that the rear wheels were getting SOME drive line power.

they said they did that and said that a specific list of parts would fix ALL my AWD problems.

had they given me an honest answer like replacing these parts MIGHT NOT FIX YOUR AWD. and I would have dropped a new trans with verified AWD functionality. I asked them specifically if any other parts could cause a malfunction of the AWD SYSTEM and they said no!

before leaving the first time the dealership printed me out a parts list of all the parts they would have replaced on this job and told me that's what I needed to replace.

I only went to them so I would know the parts I would need replaced. As I stated at the dealership originally I had just purchased the car and wanted to know the condition of its AWD SYSTEM not just the solenoid.

#9 bluedotsnow

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:34 PM

Rather than screaming and yelling and getting hauled off by the cops trying to place blame on the dealership, you might want to question the work your cheap shop turned out.


I watched that cheap shop do all the work and took pics. ALOT more than subaru was willing to let me do. the 3rd party is not the problem. I was unable to lift the car on 4 jack stands to test its AWD until recently. one of the MANY things I asked the dealership to check was that the rear drive shaft was spinning at ALL! when the duty c solenoid fails in this car the tcu tells it to send 10% power to the rear drive shaft indicating some drive line power. I asked them to verify that it was getting some power, Albany Subaru said it was.

I grilled Albany Subaru about other causes for the AWD NOT WORKING and they would not share ANY information with me other than the parts list they stated would fix my AWD

#10 bluedotsnow

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:36 PM

Name and location of this dealership?




Albany FORD Subaru
718 San Pablo Ave, Albany, CA 94706
Sales: (888) 749-4047
Service: (888) 851-6177
Parts: (888) 216-0146

#11 bluedotsnow

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:44 PM

Rather than screaming and yelling and getting hauled off by the cops trying to place blame on the dealership, you might want to question the work your cheap shop turned out.


a comment you made of if your going to replace the solenoid you might as well clutch pack blah blah blah. I know this but why would you replace either part on a car that was not capable of using them properly. I asked them before they started the diagnostic if they would be able to tell me 100% of what was wrong with the AWD with JUST the diagnosis and they lied to me saying yes.

there was even some speculation about whether I got a multipoint inspection when the dealership talked to subaru of america and vice versa. at first SOA told me that had I wanted information on the AWD system as a whole I should have requested a multipont inspection well I got one.

#12 bluedotsnow

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:51 PM

BTW if anyone has HELPFUL advice about what OTHER parts could be broken I would greatly appreciate it. I asked many times for the dealership to tell me if any parts other than the list they game me that would prevent power going to the rear they said NO!

#13 Fairtax4me

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 11:16 PM

You're still blaming a dealer for WORK THEY DID NOT DO! Bottom line.

You paid for a multi-point inspection and MIL diagnosis, which means they checked your tires, brakes, belts, hoses and suspension, and hooked up the computer to see what the fault code was.
The dealer recommended a repair based on Subarus diagnostics and repair procedure for that code, which is to replace the Duty C solenoid and Inspect/replace the transfer clutch pack. You declined their repair and left, that's the end of their involvement in the issue.

It's not uncommon for a dealer to service multiple manufacturers in the same shop. But they are bound by certain rules set by the manufacturer, your car was inspected by a Subaru technician.

Here is what you need to do, go back to the dealer and BE NICE. None of this cry and piss and moan ************, ask them why the course of service they recommended did not fix the problem. IF you're capable of keeping a level head, assuming they even let you in the door, they MIGHT consider looking at the car again to figure out if there is an issue with the transmission control unit or other parts that may be preventing the Awd from working.

Otherwise, take the car back to the shop that did the work and ask them NICELY if they can figure it out. But here, you paid them to replace parts, and that's what they did.

Either way, you just have to get it through your head that you're not going to get this fixed for free.

#14 bluedotsnow

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:05 AM

IF you're capable of keeping a level head, assuming they even let you in the door


I asked they call the cops so I would have a reference for court. I will not be going back to that shop. I DID ask politely why there course of service did not fix my problem the said and I quote "we do not warranty other shops work" I asked AGAIN for the 3rd time what other parts can cause the AWD not to function like this even with the MIL not illuminated. they said we do not warranty other peoples work. just about any question I asked was we do not warranty other peoples work. I asked for advice and information and they gave me a disclaimer and showed me the door. I WAS polite until they would not give me any helpful information as to what might be the cause and how much it could cost to fix. remember originally I asked what parts could cause NO AWD. they handed me a list, I asked again other than these parts listed WHAT PARTS CAN CAUSE NO AWD, they said NO other parts could cause lack of AWD.

#15 bluedotsnow

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:06 AM

Again please information about what else can cause lack of awd! My primary goal is to fix my car!!!!

#16 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:26 AM

You need to put a duty cycle meter on the duty-c signal. Or better yet an o-scope.

You have no legal recourse with the dealer. They did not do the work. You had a hack shop do the work and they didn't know what they were looking at. Face it - you tried to cheap out and you lost. If you had the dealer do the work you would have a legit complaint - similarly if you had the independent do the dignosis and buy the parts you would be covered. But you didn't - you screwed yourself by buying your own parts and telling a monkey to swap them out on YOUR recommendation. The dealer is right to say they will not deal with this further - they don't know if what they recommended was even done correctly! I own a shop and would say the same thing - take a walk!

So now you are screwed. Sorry dude.

GD

#17 bluedotsnow

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:07 AM

You need to put a duty cycle meter on the duty-c signal. Or better yet an o-scope.

You have no legal recourse with the dealer. They did not do the work. You had a hack shop do the work and they didn't know what they were looking at. Face it - you tried to cheap out and you lost. If you had the dealer do the work you would have a legit complaint - similarly if you had the independent do the dignosis and buy the parts you would be covered. But you didn't - you screwed yourself by buying your own parts and telling a monkey to swap them out on YOUR recommendation. The dealer is right to say they will not deal with this further - they don't know if what they recommended was even done correctly! I own a shop and would say the same thing - take a walk!

So now you are screwed. Sorry dude.

GD


first of all you must be a cheat like the service manager B.A.R> verified I had a case, especially after I told them the two parties were involved.

secound if a customer came in asking you what was wrong with their AWD would you give them a parts list to partially fix the problem and give them no further information? I WOULD have had the dealer do the work but they would not tell me what if any and how much other parts could be.


Third THIS IS NOT INFORMATION ON HOW TO FIX AWD GTFO

#18 bluedotsnow

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:09 AM

What would cause the drive hub in the transfer clutch not to spin. just the spline shaft or could it be deeper in the trans?

#19 bluedotsnow

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:13 AM

You need to put a duty cycle meter on the duty-c signal. Or better yet an o-scope. GD


BTW one of my first self diagnostics was to use a multimeter to measure voltage of the signal going to the solenoid. DUH that's why I asked them to verify that JUST the duty solenoid was limiting AWD. I didn't own 4 jack stands to test the drive shaft functionality myself.

#20 Red92

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:38 AM

first of all you must be a cheat like the service manager
...
Third THIS IS NOT INFORMATION ON HOW TO FIX AWD GTFO



#1: Insulting long-time and well-respected members here is NOT a good way to get help. :banghead:

#2: Why would anyone tell you what parts or procedures to try, when we know that you cut corners on the work, and then call the police and take people to court when things don't go right? :rolleyes:

#3: You have contradicted yourself:

they said they did that and said that a specific list of parts would fix ALL my AWD problems.

I asked many times for the dealership to tell me if any parts other than the list they game me that would prevent power going to the rear they said NO!

I WOULD have had the dealer do the work but they would not tell me what if any and how much other parts could be.


Edited by Red92, 22 March 2012 - 01:41 AM.


#21 bluedotsnow

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:20 AM

#1: Insulting long-time and well-respected members here is NOT a good way to get help. :banghead:

#2: Why would anyone tell you what parts or procedures to try, when we know that you cut corners on the work, and then call the police and take people to court when things don't go right? :rolleyes:

#3: You have contradicted yourself:


look I started off this thread in the wrong way please forgive me I should have only asked about my car and its AWD or there lack of.

I do not mean to insult anyone but I'm asking for help all I'm getting from this forum is tough ************.

I did not contradict myself

they provided me a list of parts they wanted to replace I asked if any other parts of the AWD system could need attention in any way they said no. again I asked are you sure, I need to know all costs that COULD be associated with a repair like this. they reassured me it was just the parts on the list.

I would have had the dealer do the repair and exploratory service had I known they could not do a real diagnostic without taking apart the tail section. I would have been much more inclined to take my car back to them if they had talked with me about what other parts might need to be replaced in order for the awd system to function properly. I already planned to replace the solenoid and was going to them to see if I should or not. I feel I should have been advised of all costs of parts as I asked to be and was denied. how can I ask a shop to do work I don't have money for? if I did that they would take my vehicle after doing the work. I needed to know how much money to have before proceeding. up front they should have told me to come back when I had several thousand dollars and that a "diagnostic" would not render the results I required.

#22 ShawnW

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:29 AM

First. I will award infraction points for any further slashing at each other in this thread.

Second. There are a few things that could be wrong here. The pipe that goes to the solenoid could be plugged, missing, or not all the way into the aluminum it sits in.

Third. Further diagnosis is needed. Find another dealer or Subaru specific shop to at a minimum diagnose the problem but hopefully also fix it.

Further.....
Does the AT Oil temp light flash when you start the car?
Have you connected the car to a scanner to verify no trouble codes are present?
Is the rear section of the driveshaft in the car? Yes I have seen this.
How long has the AWD not worked?
Has the height of the clutch pack been measured when assembled?

Lastly,
You might need to stop looking for a parts list and just get back to basics and diagnose it.

One last thing. Please break up your text a little. Hit enter and make a separate paragraph when it is warranted to make it easier on the eyes of the readers.

#23 johnceggleston

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:22 AM

i'm with shawn, are there any trouble codes?

if the front speed sensor fails you will have no power to the rear wheels.

unplug the tcu and drive the car. it should be in ''limp'' mode, 3rd gear only and major torque bind in tight circles. this will tell you if there is trans fluid pressure at the clutch and if the clutch parts are working properly.

#24 bluedotsnow

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:47 AM

ok now to the relevant stuff thanks guys!

car only exhibited code 24 before replacing the solenoid NO ecu or tcu codes will be output through a scanner or tcu light flash procedure like an old obd1 after replacing the solenoid.

scanner check I own one.

drive shaft will NOT SPIN but seems to move with the car as it rolls along the road.

no awd since I bought the car I asked a mechanic to do an inspection on the car and awd and he said "looks good everything is there" concerning a visual inspection of the cars undercarriage ie diveshaft diff....

The when I found out the clutch pack needed to be measured I realized this was getting expensive! if I were going to not pay lots of storage fees an a mechanic i would have to have parts same day. albany subaru was the only local place that had any clutch plates in stock and they only had 3.3mm. after talking with albany (who would not have measured), subaru of america and subaruparts.com I learned that the 3.3mm set was the ONLY set subaru of america recomended for my car. I understand why you measure.... the ones we took out and the new ones that went it are identical, 3.3mm as subaru of america recommends...

I have checked the duty c signal from the tcu not a problem. I have disconnected voltage to the solenoid hoping for torque bind and or rear wheel or even rear driveshaft movement, NOTHING!

I'm going to start with the front vss that seems plausible..... if I unplug it and start the car will power be transferred to the rear? should I get a spare out of picknpull? I'm on a tight budget especially considering how much money I just wasted on parts I did not need and non exploratory service.

#25 Caboobaroo

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:14 AM

I have skimmed a bit and didn't see the vehicle in question. What are we dealing with?

FWD fuse?




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