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No AWD steelership diagnosed as duty c and clutch pack, replaced but still NO AWD


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110 replies to this topic

#76 bluedotsnow

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:56 PM

subaru master tech said 1mm gap is fine and to check solenoid pressure first

#77 bluedotsnow

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:32 AM

I put all the parts back together with an oil pressure gauge in the proper port. I got SOME movement out of the rear wheels for the first time but could easily stop the drive shaft. the gauge remained at zero. so now to clear a line blockage? will call Subaru tomorrow.

#78 bluedotsnow

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 03:41 AM

I think there is a blockage in or between the control valve and the rear line pressure port for the mpt clutch. a new control valve assembly costs about $800 from subaruparts.com..... I hope I can clear whatever is blocking pressure, there is some fluid in the line but the oil pressure gauge remains at zero even at stall speeds.....

what really grinds my gears is that subaru dealerships will not tell you what they will do to your car. you just have to give them money and prey WTF!!!!!!

#79 brus brother

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 04:12 AM

I think there is a blockage in or between the control valve and the rear line pressure port for the mpt clutch. a new control valve assembly costs about $800 from subaruparts.com..... I hope I can clear whatever is blocking pressure, there is some fluid in the line but the oil pressure gauge remains at zero even at stall speeds.....

what really grinds my gears is that subaru dealerships will not tell you what they will do to your car. you just have to give them money and prey WTF!!!!!!

Pun intended?
While yours seems to be an interesting case requiring careful and critical diagnosis, I have all too often witnessed service managers up-selling services (read preying) with caveats like "well, lil lady, you really should replace your (barely worn) brakes, blinker fluid etc. as I see you have children in the car"!
:popcorn:

#80 bluedotsnow

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 04:17 AM

ROFL I'll call that a Freudian pun

#81 fixingrusinc83

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 11:13 AM

Sorry did not read all post but 2 cents worth. Do you have any pictures of tail housing. 1 The tube that takes the fluid from duty c to the tailhousing could be popped out or 2 some of the tailhousing were made with a weak aluminiun that would get deep grooves were the seals for the 4wd, causing fluid to slip past and shows no leak. A picture may show tube or grooves if drum with tail shaft was out when picture was taken.

#82 bluedotsnow

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 02:49 PM

tube is held firmly in place my bolts no play. I know about the ring seals and will address those tonight when I have it apart but they looked good maybe tired but in tacked. at this point I'm thinking its a stuck valve in the valve body or a blockage between the valve body and clutch packs. i hooked up an oil pressure gauge and didn't get ANY response not even a twitch.... when I disconnected it I only saw ATF on the lip of the gauge fitting ie there was no pressure to force atf into the gauge fitting. so some atf was flowing through but no pressure built up not even 1psi.....

off to picknpull for a valve body and another cv axle!

#83 bluedotsnow

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:40 PM

fyi the import experts wanted $100 more than auto rocker for the same gates timing belt and bearing kit. oem water pump on the way! with plump new tail housing gaskets that might fix some of my wowes.

#84 bluedotsnow

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:42 PM

Sorry did not read all post but 2 cents worth. Do you have any pictures of tail housing. 1 The tube that takes the fluid from duty c to the tailhousing could be popped out or 2 some of the tailhousing were made with a weak aluminiun that would get deep grooves were the seals for the 4wd, causing fluid to slip past and shows no leak. A picture may show tube or grooves if drum with tail shaft was out when picture was taken.


nope no grooving other than whats supposed to be there. ie the machined grooving on the aluminum.

#85 ivans imports

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 09:29 AM

above the valve body is a fliud transfer line that moves fliud to the rear tail section is a 7\16 stainless line have seen it vibrate and break check it for cracks and remember the soiliniod stops the flow of fliud to turn on awd so it should not hold prehsure the soiliniod is deenergised to turn on awd

#86 bluedotsnow

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:39 PM

thanks for the tip ivan when I install the new ring seals I will crack the drain pan and drop my valve body to take a look at the transfer pipe, the pipe in my trans tail section is brand new and firmly in place.

#87 bluedotsnow

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:49 PM

above the valve body is a fliud transfer line that moves fliud to the rear tail section is a 7\16 stainless line have seen it vibrate and break check it for cracks and remember the soiliniod stops the flow of fliud to turn on awd so it should not hold prehsure the soiliniod is deenergised to turn on awd


are you talking about the valve body in the tail section? I'm talking about the main valve body that controls fluid pressure to the main trans cavity and clutches as well as the tail section and duty c.

#88 bluedotsnow

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 01:14 AM

can anyone tell me if the tail section is supplied atf pressure from the main valve body or at oil pump? would blowing out the supply line to the tail section with compressed air do damage to anything?

#89 bluedotsnow

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 01:00 PM

if a new mpt clutch was installed dry and only got atf when the trans was refilled could it cause ware of the friction material and burn it up before its fully lubricated? I noticed that the FSM states atf to be applied before instillation and I don't remember winters auto putting atf on the mpt before installing it

#90 bluedotsnow

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 02:24 PM

more testing on jack stands! seems that without the TCU connected I have SLIGHTLY more rear wheel drive , I'd say it takes around 5 more pounds of pressure to stop the rear wheels than with the TCU connected. at all times the front spins faster than the rear

could a combination of old ring seals and 1mm play in mpt clutch be enough to cause the limited amount of rear wheel spin?


when the TCU is connected and in (1)st gear I get LESS rear wheel spin than when in (D)rive.

Edited by bluedotsnow, 09 May 2012 - 10:28 PM.


#91 bluedotsnow

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 02:07 AM

I take great pleasure in saying for now I have a working AWD 4eat. I purchased a tail housing from an impreza at picknpull and after getting it home and comparing with the one on my car I could see a small but extremely significant difference. the backing plate for the duty c valve body was missing, it had been left on the old solenoid when replaced by winters auto, CLEARLY NEGLIGENT!

I hooked my air compressor up and tested the pathways. I could clearly see where pressure was blowing off on my original and not actuating the valve body. as opposed to the picknpull valve body that moved and routed pressure to the clutch packs locking them against the snap ring.

after testing in a small patch of faux mud and tilled soil on a farm I can say it feels more like the AWD I am accustomed to riding in 5mt and does not have any front wheel spin from a standing start.

I will update with much more info and pics as they become available I tried to take some today but my phone battery was to low and i just wanted to get it done.


:banana:

#92 ivans imports

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 11:06 AM

nothing like haveing to fix somones messup

#93 bluedotsnow

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 10:44 PM

no kidding to say the least I'm going to get my money back and if winters auto has any lip to give me I'm going straight to B.A.R. they are lucky the lack of fluid didn't fry my clutch pack! at many points many shops had the opportunity to help me figure out what was wrong STARTING WITH THE DEALER! when I first called and got the cold shoulder the should have told me to bring in the parts that came off the vehicle, they should have known that backing plate should have gone back into the car and saved me time and money. several independent trans shops had the opportunity to fix this but had no clue and washed there hands of it before ever putting my car on a rack. it really floors me that I needed help was willing to pay and no one had answers but junk yard cars.....

#94 bluedotsnow

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:12 AM

winters auto agreed to refund me in full and pay for at least the gaskets on request.... I would and should ask for more like replacing the clutch pack that was not lubricated properly, but this shop is family to my GF and I just want to put this mess behind me.

I still have alot of animosity twords the dealer for the INCOMPLETE and OVERSOLD parts list. I'm going to call bar back about this over sale bacause its gross!

albany subaru told me to buy and replace these parts

31523AA410 plate set
31942AA090 valve ay transfer
31948AA010 pipe transfer
31954AA071 gasket transfer valve
31337AA120 gasket trans case

they told me the clutch pack was ABSOLUTELY part of the problem and not just something that should be replaced. they also left out a second transfer valve gasket and Plate Transfer Valve, part number 31952AA030, COST $1.51.

what the parts list SHOULD have looked like even with the oversold clutch pack.

31523AA410 plate set < comes with 3.3MM pressure plate
31942AA090 valve ay transfer
31948AA010 pipe transfer
31954AA071 gasket transfer valve
31954AA071 gasket transfer valve
31952AA030 Plate Transfer Valve
31337AA120 gasket trans case

optional pressure disks (MIGHT NEED) $38.70 each

31593AA161 3.7MM pressure plate
31593AA171 4.1MM pressure plate
31593AA181 4.5MM pressure plate

turns out I could use either 3.7 or 4.1 to bring my car into factory spec. the 3.3 works with 1MM of play 1.6 is "allowable" and I spoke with a master tech at a san francisco subaru dealer and he said he had set the clutch packs up with 1MM of gap before without a problem.



when winters auto took the old solenoid valve body off they neglected to see the plate stuck to the back of the old valve body and used the single gasket to afix the new valve body onto the bare tail housing. if they had noticed at the time and said something I would have had to use a liquid gasket option for the second gasket left out of the parts list by albany subaru. had that liquid gasket failed the next day or day after I would NOT have held them accountable for anything as it would have been my call to use that kind of product in place of a gasket. the fact that they didn't notice the plate and put it back together without saying anything was negligent and has cost me dearly. as I said before if this was a shop I did not have ties to I would have gone straight to bar and sued for thousands of dollars, but here is to keeping the peace!


On another note as to why I don't like "subaru dealers" I have not found one thats a REAL SUBARU DEALERSHIP! they all sell other cars and are miss informed/don't care about parts/service. many months ago when I started this whole fiasco just after buying my girlfriends car she needed keys as hers was stripped out. her car came with all original paperwork including the key code. we brought all this information into fairfield subaru. they told us they did not have blanks and to order factory cut keys would be several hundred dollars. However if we could get blanks that dealership could cut them for free.... well today I went in and talked to the same guy! he said they DID NOT cut subaru keys and only offered that service for GM customers with a GM key machine. he then told me to call the napa subaru dealership. They told me to go to a lock smith..... so WTF is the problem with these service/parts departments! they wouldn't tell me what they would do to my car for a diagnostic and refused to give out basic information sating that if I followed there "instructions" and it failed I could sue them. that may be but I was not asking for instructions only the procedures they would use to diagnose my car not exactly how they would conduct those procedures.

if I find a REAL subaru dealership here in CALI I will post it I have a good feeling about SF and will visit them in the next few months when I have to travel that way for work.

#95 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:29 AM

I diagnosed your problem back in post #38 - almost two months ago. ;)

Some of the holes on that plate are very small. Was the plate removed and the gaskets on both sides of it replaced after fully cleaning and polishing the plate? I clean them with a roto-loc disc in my die grinder because the gaskets get stuck to the plate and don't easily come off.


I take great pleasure in saying for now I have a working AWD 4eat. I purchased a tail housing from an impreza at picknpull and after getting it home and comparing with the one on my car I could see a small but extremely significant difference. the backing plate for the duty c valve body was missing, it had been left on the old solenoid when replaced by winters auto, CLEARLY NEGLIGENT!


when winters auto took the old solenoid valve body off they neglected to see the plate stuck to the back of the old valve body and used the single gasket to afix the new valve body onto the bare tail housing. if they had noticed at the time and said something I would have had to use a liquid gasket option for the second gasket left out of the parts list by albany subaru. had that liquid gasket failed the next day or day after I would NOT have held them accountable for anything as it would have been my call to use that kind of product in place of a gasket. the fact that they didn't notice the plate and put it back together without saying anything was negligent and has cost me dearly. as I said before if this was a shop I did not have ties to I would have gone straight to bar and sued for thousands of dollars, but here is to keeping the peace!


That is EXACTLY why people bring their cars to me. Attention to detail. You MUST ALWAYS compare old parts to new one's before installation. Had they simply looked at the old valve and the new valve they would have seen the difference immediately. I cannot tell you how many times I've got a wrong part or seen that I had to reuse a component of an old part with a replacement - this is basic mechanics 101 and if they can't do that on a reliable and consistent basis they SHOULD NOT be wrenching on anyone else's car.

Had you lived near me and brought me this problem I would have replaced the Duty-C and transfer clutch if needed (I measure them upon removal) and you would have been down the road for about $300.

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 15 May 2012 - 10:42 AM.


#96 bluedotsnow

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:11 PM

you said it general! a belated thanks for the tip.... I until recently lacked the ability to get the car high enough to get under it. I hail you for your honesty in helping others and wish in some ways that I did live closer.....

it seems everyone in my area SUCKS or wants to charge and arm and a leg so this lesson being learned I hope I can help other in my area. testing the clutch pack with compressed air is something I read about but never found a good guide for. I'm going to do a write up on this when I get the gaskets and parts to fix my original tail housing in addition to how mine lacking the backing plate tested bad.

in your opinion should I replace the clutch pack asap? it not having been lubricated properly.

#97 WoodsWagon

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 02:37 AM

So if the duty C and clutchpack had been replaced properly, you would have had working AWD and no flashing light on the dash, right?

That means the dealerships origional diagnosis and quote was right.
And it means by going to a cheaper shop you ended up having to do the job twice.

The dealer doesn't suck, if you had them do the work it would have been fixed right the first time with the original diagnosis and recommended work because they would have known how to put it together correctly.

From your first post: "So effectively the dealership's recommended service fixed electrical problem.... that's exactly what they said when I returned and denied any liability for my AWD problems. stating I only asked them about a flashing at oil temp light." and my response:
You got a preliminary diagnosis from a dealer and then went to an independent shop to have it fixed. You should be going back to the independent shop to have them figure out why it isn't working, not screaming at the dealer until they have the cops haul you out. They didn't do the work. It could easily be the work of the other shop that's causing your continued problems, not a misdiagnosis by the dealer.

How much emotional energy and time wasting have you been doing since then about this issue? Was it worth the $500 you saved by going to the cheap shop over the dealer?

Edited by WoodsWagon, 17 May 2012 - 02:44 AM.


#98 bluedotsnow

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 02:12 PM

woods wagon please read my post about the parts list the dealer handed me. they left out the backing plate and second solenoid gasket.

if they were going to super carefully take it apart the valve body as to not disrupt the backing plate and gasket why was there no mention of this to me?!? I would have wanted to fork out the extra what $5 for the second gasket and backing plates if I was going to replace $400 in other parts! i will admit the dealership is less at fault than I originally perceived BUT they still gave me an incomplete parts list and that contributed to the faulty instillation. this has been a learning process for me and at the start I had no idea how incompetent a shop can be.... LESSON LEARNED

Its really hard to say if it was or wasn't worth it because if I had done the work myself it would have been done right. I was worried about ME screwing something up it being my first time opening a transmission. I really do wish I had just cracked it open in my driveway initially after getting the diagnosis from the dealer.

IF I thought the dealer was 100% NOT at fault I would have writen them a letter of apology and contacted bar about getting the complaint reversed. PLEASE TELL ME why would they list a clutch pack that "might" need to be replaced and not a mandatory gasket and backing plate? they also told me that the clutch pack was ABSOLUTELY part of my problem, how is a clutch pack electric as per the electrical problem..... you should check out yelp.com for reviews on this dealer I'm not the only one who has had problems and again they are much less at fault than I originally perceived. I asked many questions about there select monitor process readings and were generally not help full other than wanting money that day to do work themselves and I half think the service manager intentionally left out the backing plate and parts so that only they would get it right and if I went to another shop they were more likely to fail. any competent shop would have done this right I got a real monkey.....


YET AGAIN I ASK Should I replace the clutch packs having not been lubricated properly they are brown not black and still have friction material.

#99 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 02:34 PM

woods wagon please read my post about the parts list the dealer handed me. they left out the backing plate and second solenoid gasket.


Because you never need those. The gasket between the backing plate and the tail housing always stays on the backing plate and I've never had to replace a backing plate - you clean off the gasket on the solenoid valve body side and slap the old plate back in.

Though my dealer always sells me two gaskets even though I only use one - never the plate though. They don't stock the plate. They do stock the solenoid w/valve body, gaskets, and clutch pack. No one replaces those plates. And 99% of us only use a single gasket. So they gave you the correct parts for a trained and experienced technician to repair your problem. That's how I see it. They sold you only what you needed and not what you didn't. That's a service to the customer and should be praised.

if they were going to super carefully take it apart the valve body as to not disrupt the backing plate and gasket why was there no mention of this to me?!? I would have wanted to fork out the extra what $5 for the second gasket and backing plates if I was going to replace $400 in other parts! i will admit the dealership is less at fault than I originally perceived BUT they still gave me an incomplete parts list and that contributed to the faulty instillation. this has been a learning process for me and at the start I had no idea how incompetent a shop can be.... LESSON LEARNED


You talked to the parts people - they can only tell you what parts the tech's use for that job and quite frankly even the techs themselves can't be expected to regurgitate in minute detail the procedure they use for this job. It's basic mechanics 101 - if you can't figure it out when you get in there then you shouldn't be turning a wrench.

YET AGAIN I ASK Should I replace the clutch packs having not been lubricated properly they are brown not black and still have friction material.


If you have signs of mechanical binding then replace them. If not, and coupled with your observation of condition and measurement of thickness I would not bother. Speculation that they may have been damaged is not proof that they were - but appearance, measurement, and proper operation is evidence that they weren't. I'm going with hard evidence over speculation every time.

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 17 May 2012 - 02:40 PM.


#100 bluedotsnow

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 03:12 PM

Thanks again general! in my case the gasket did not stay on the back of the plate and was damaged after it came out of the tail housing I will post pics of the remnants left on the plate.




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