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Slave Cylinder or Master Cylinder? Answer Is.... Neither!


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28 replies to this topic

#1 lostinthe202

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 02:36 PM

'99 Forester, 177k, 5spd

My clutch is acting up as in I press the pedal in and I can't engage the trans with the car running.

The fluid looked way nasty, so I bleed the system clean. I can see the slave moving the fork, but I would say not enough and since I can't get into gear, I suspect either the slave or the master, but how do you tell which?

Thanks!

Will-

Edited by lostinthe202, 11 June 2012 - 10:29 PM.


#2 Durania

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 04:14 PM

Is the pedal coming back to the top?

#3 Fairtax4me

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 05:08 PM

One fails the other will soon follow. They aren't that expensive, might as well do both.

#4 lostinthe202

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 06:37 PM

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion. But the only place that had a master in stock was Napa and it was $157 for theirs so I got the slave and I'll order the master, I just hope that is the problem and not something that requires trans removal.

Yes, the pedal does return to the top.

#5 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 09:24 PM

Slave failure is very common on that year Forester. There was a TSB about them having weak springs. May have been an applicable recall as well.....

When you bleed it - compress the slave completely with a c-clamp and leave it there till completely bled. It's the only way to get all the air out.

I've never had to replace a master - it's always the slave and never the master in my experience. Slave's are about $40.

GD

#6 lostinthe202

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 01:14 AM

Right on, thanks Rick! I picked up a slave from the parts store today and I'll throw it in tomorrow morning.

Will-

#7 ivans imports

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 10:33 AM

One small tip have been running into the clutch peadal stuck to floor when hot engine the fix i found was to change out the fliud to dott 4 has a higher boiling point thiss seems to fix problem still a pain to bleed

#8 grossgary

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 02:03 PM

I've never had to replace a master - it's always the slave and never the master in my experience. Slave's are about $40.

GD

+1. always the slave, never the master is my experience as well.

the hose is often replaced and considered a weak link by some accounts so I replace that as well. I haven't officially seen one "fail" but i've never diagnosed them - i just replace both and it fixed them every time.

Good luck will, they can be a pain to bleed - follow GD's directions I know he's gotten good at bleeding them quickly. i'm usually not on any time line and will bleed...let set over night...and let the bubbles come to the "top" so to speak, bleed again, good to go.

#9 lostinthe202

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 06:38 PM

Well,

I installed the new slave clamped it and bleed system. The fluid was clean fluid coming out without any sign of big bubbles or that frothy stuff. The movement at the fork looked pretty good to me, though I don't know how much travel there is supposed to be.

It didn't work, same symptoms as before, push in the clutch and I'm not able to get it into gear. The one thing that was different, and had me worried, is that I could feel the engine rpm through the clutch pedal and there were some funny noises coming from the bell-housing area. Something is not right in the internals of the clutch. And since nobody feels it necessary to put in any kind of useful inspection plate, I'm in the process of pulling the trans to find out what's wrong. Once again on dirt/gravel, once again alone, once again without solid information that I'm going in the right direction. But I need this car back on the road, even if it means replacing parts that don't need replacing. man what I wouldn't give for a cement slab!

Will-

#10 grossgary

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:51 AM

hmmm, that sucks. throw down some carpet or plywood sheets? i have 20 pizza box heading to recycle - want me to mail them to you!?!? LOL

it does sound like the clutch is the problem and those are maintenance items so it's sort of adding up? hopefully it is definitely bled, those things are annoying to get all the air out of.

#11 davebugs

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:56 AM

Repalce the TO bearing clips!!

#12 Fairtax4me

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:58 AM

Don't you love it when a small project turns into a big one?
Check the release lever for cracks. I hear that's common.

#13 ivans imports

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 10:13 AM

the back side of release fork gets dryed out have had luck spraying a bitt of lube down from above fork to losen it up

#14 lostinthe202

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:36 PM

hmmm, that sucks. throw down some carpet or plywood sheets? i have 20 pizza box heading to recycle - want me to mail them to you!?!? LOL

it does sound like the clutch is the problem and those are maintenance items so it's sort of adding up? hopefully it is definitely bled, those things are annoying to get all the air out of.


I'm 99% sure I had all the air out, about as sure as I could be.

Repalce the TO bearing clips!!


Yup, going to do that, I remember that from my first Sub clutch job

Don't you love it when a small project turns into a big one?
Check the release lever for cracks. I hear that's common.


Yeah a broken fork is what got me digging into the clutch on my first Subaru ('96 Outback) so I'll def be looking at that.

the back side of release fork gets dryed out have had luck spraying a bitt of lube down from above fork to losen it up



The problem developed really quickly, like I took it out of 5th on the freeway and at the end of the offramp when I went to put it into 1st, it wouldn't go, not even a little. I had to turn the car off and start it in first just to get moving. I didn't consider trying to lube the fork or any other stop-gap measures inside the bell-housing. I was willing to try the slave since that's a known weak link, but I don't like driving time-bombs.

The major down side is that between this and having to pay for my upcoming semester, I'll be shelling out close to a grand in the next couple of days :horse::dead::mad:

#15 samneric

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 01:48 PM

I'm about to replace the slave/hose on my '98 OBW because sometimes the peddle goes all the way to the floor, other times its half-way down. I believe there was a design fault on the ones from the factory. I'll let you know how mine goes when its done next w/e.

Steve

#16 lostinthe202

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 10:49 PM

So yeah, not the slave or the master. In fact the slave was probably fine, but well now I have a spare.


I call this one, "still life with clutch disc"

Posted Image


The PP and Flywheel are totally hosed. I have all of the original records and this is the original clutch so it's got 177k on it. My '96 OBW had 160ish on it's original clutch (not verified original though) and it didn't look anywhere near as bad.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Can't really tell from the pics, but the flywheel friction surface is scored bellow the plane of PP mounting surface. It seems like there's been a lot of heat put into these parts which amazes me that the friction disc lasted as long as it did. It never slipped on me either, right up to it exploding.

Anyway, new parts are on order, OEM kit, TO clips and a new fork boot. The fork is in good condition, there was plenty of grease still around, too much in fact I'd say, but then maybe that's why it's still around :rolleyes:

I was able to suspend the trans and shove it back enough that I don't have to lift it to get things back together,

Posted Image

All it took was bunji-chording the shifter arms out of the way and the straps you see in the pics and a bunch of playing around with jacks underneath to find the correct angle to get off the studs on the bottom. It was a pain, but not as much of a pain as trying to maneuver the trans down to the ground and then back up again.

If I had a hoist or access to one I would have pulled the engine. I could have rented one, but since it would have involved renting a vehicle to go get it, the expense really couldn't be justified. Not to mention I would have had to buy a couple of sheet of plywood to move the thing around on.

Whatever, it's getting done.

Will-

#17 Fairtax4me

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 11:26 PM

Looks like it sprung a leak. :-p
I always liked the floor jack approach with transmissions. It's just easier for me to hold the trans with one hand and raise it with the other. With it hung up the way you have it, I think you could lift the tail housing enough to slip the mount studs out of the cross member and just let it slide back? That might be how you did it. :-p

Look at it this way, if it hadn't failed now, it would have just failed later. :lol: You know cars don't break when you have time to fix them!

#18 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 11:28 PM

Exedy clutch kits *are* OEM and a lot cheaper on Amazon than the dealership pricing. That's the route to go for sure.

GD

#19 ivans imports

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 09:22 AM

use a cherry picker with a long strap to lower trans down works spanky i bett your clutch looks like that blownout springs. I agree with the exedy clutch kitt top notch

#20 Durania

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 09:46 AM

For future reference: you can remove the hood prop and move it to a spot on the strut tower passenger side and you can prop the hood up fully without using a bungee cord.

#21 ocei77

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 09:48 AM

a come along on a chain around a beam will give you the lift capabilities you need.

O.

#22 lostinthe202

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 04:48 PM

For future reference: you can remove the hood prop and move it to a spot on the strut tower passenger side and you can prop the hood up fully without using a bungee cord.


Ah, thanks didn't know that. The bunjy was easy enough, but if it weren't that's good to know.

use a cherry picker with a long strap to lower trans down works spanky i bett your clutch looks like that blownout springs. I agree with the exedy clutch kitt top notch


Don't have a cherry picker, any friends with one, or the desire to rent a truck to go rent one, etc. etc.

a come along on a chain around a beam will give you the lift capabilities you need.

O.


Don't have a comealong. The straps weren't to lift the trans, the two jacks underneath did that, they are just there to hold it up so i didn't have to get it back in the air when I was finished.

#23 forester2002s

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 08:55 PM

Well done!

You had a problem. Figured out what was wrong. And are fixing it with less-than-ideal resources (no lift, & no concrete floor).

When this is all done, you deserve to feel good about it all.
It's a kind of a Zen thing.

#24 lostinthe202

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 08:07 AM

Well done!

You had a problem. Figured out what was wrong. And are fixing it with less-than-ideal resources (no lift, & no concrete floor).

When this is all done, you deserve to feel good about it all.
It's a kind of a Zen thing.


Ha! thanks. I do feel good once I'm on the other side of my automotive shenanigans, though sometimes I feel like I could use a bit less zen in my life!



Got the clutch kit (Exedy,) picked up the clips from the dealer today (F'ing $8.59 for two bent pieces of wire!!!!) and I'm dropping off the flywheel for grinding today after work. Should have things buttoned up by Saturday.

Will-

#25 unibrook

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 01:37 PM

Well done!

You had a problem. Figured out what was wrong. And are fixing it with less-than-ideal resources (no lift, & no concrete floor).

When this is all done, you deserve to feel good about it all.
It's a kind of a Zen thing.



Zen and the Art of Subaru Maintenance..........kinda has a ring to it.

:banana:




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