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1987 GL-10 Wagon EA82 3AT


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#1 DT250a

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 12:56 PM

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Hello everyone.

This is my first thread on this fine forum.

I know that the search function is your friend.

I have read a few threads that pertain to my situation, but feel I should still start my own.

Even though most of my issues have been covered in other threads, each vehicle is a little different.

Also, the more threads addressing a certain problem, the easier for people to search & see different perspectives.

I hope that the semi-redundancy of my issues doesn't offend anyone.

Without further adieu, here is my story:

My father had this 1987 Subaru GL-10 wagon that was collecting dust. He said that he wanted to sell it, but had to sort out a carburetor problem first.

A few months later I needed an extra vehicle & asked him how much. "Free".

Here she is:

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#2 DT250a

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 01:00 PM

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Upon researching this vehicle so that I could address the carb problem, I discovered that there is quite a following to these old rigs.

I saw the 6-lug conversion, 2" lifts, and Weber carb swaps. I'm hooked.

Here is the engine compartment. I do plan on washing it before I do too much work:

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#3 DT250a

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 01:12 PM

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The carburetor problem turned out to be a vacuum problem or so it seems.

As you can see, one of my goals has already been achieved. My father was having trouble with the OEM carb, & bought a kit for the Weber swap. The Weber is a manual choke model. On the front, there is a vacuum port with a line going to the distributor. (EDIT: it's not going to the distributor. see post below) To the left of that is another vacuum tap, but it came plugged from the factory with a metal insert. The carb kit was installed by a local reputable shop. That doesn't mean that it was done right.

The issue was that the car would drive & cruise fine, but would bog when you gave it gas from idle. After the carb swap it ran great for a couple years, then the bog started.

There is a doohickey on the passenger side firewall with vacuum lines. One goes across to the other side and disappears into the body. I'm assuming it goes to the A/C / Heater controls?

The other one goes toward the front of the engine and was just laying there. (EDIT: SEE POST #30)I found a metal vacuum fitting on the manifold that was vacant and was pulling vacuum. I hooked this mystery line to it and it seemed to help my problem. It did drop the idle speed though. My last two photos illustrate this point.

There are also many more short vacuum lines next to the carb that aren't plugged or anything. I'm assuming that they went to the OEM air cleaner housing. One of them is pulling vacuum. The rest don't seem to be.

What I want to do is simple. I want to take care of the vacuum lines in the proper way so that the car runs as it should. I would rather do things the right way with no short cuts, so I'm assuming to retain the EGR & thermo / vacuum switch? Am I missing mine?

Also, the A/C compressor was recently replaced with new, but it isn't blowing cold air. It either needs charged, or could it also be a vacuum issue?

In time, I want to fab a plate for the top of the Weber and use the OEM air cleaner housing.

I also will be drilling the hubs for 6-hole wheels, & possibly doing a 2" lift.

.

Edited by DT250a, 07 September 2012 - 12:12 PM.


#4 DT250a

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 01:14 PM

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I don't plan on abusing this car or doing any crazy 4-wheeling with it.

I would like it to be reliable yet have more power.

I would also like to use it in the mountains in a non destructive manner on suitable roads & trails.

[shameless plug]

My buddy owns a 4x4 fabrication shop, www.the4x4store.com, so I will be getting much assistance from him.

I might also have him make me tube bumpers, if it can be done tastefully.

[/shameless plug]

The engine & tuning will be all me.

I'm heading out for a little camping, so if you have any thoughts, comments, or ideas, please post to my thread!

.

Edited by DT250a, 01 September 2012 - 01:18 PM.


#5 philoftheblanks

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 01:24 PM

I have an 87 GL-10 Wagon also, but mine is the turbo model with multi-port fuel injection. I recently went through and replaced head gaskets and seals and the like. No more water in my oil, oil on the driveway, etc...

One remaining problem is occasional rough running while coasting at constant speeds. Not sure if this may be a problem with the throttle position sensor, but this does not pertain to your situation. What does are the importance of those vacuum lines. I have found that the original soob clamps and hoses deteriorate over time, and I believe accumulate into small leaks throughout the system. One by one I'm now going through and reclamping all of the hose attachments (there are roughly 1,000) to see if this fixes my problem.

I have completed the 2" lift, which is really not that difficult you'll find, and I also have some 14" peugeot wheels that are now waiting for some tires. I believe I'll go with the BF Goodrich A/T KO's which turn out to be ~25.5" outside diameter, in hopes that I will not have to do any cutting/bashing, etc. since my GL-10 looks almost as nice as yours. I'll post some pics once the new tires are on, but I figure all told on a 3.5-4" overall clearance gain. Should easily replace the state of Oregon Jeep I've been renting to do my field work down in SE by Lake Owyhee. If you live around there, this area would be great for anyone who wants to test out their off-road project. I'm also planning on hitting Steens Mountain and the Alvord Desert while I'm down there next time. Just be prepared, you may not see people for a long time if something goes wrong....

If I have any more insight into your problem, I'll let you know. What kind of mileage do you get with the carb? Mine is a pathetic 20 mpg or so with the turbo. I did a 2.2 legacy swap into my vanagon and that gets 22-23 mpg, despite being almost twice as heavy and as aerodynamic as a barn. If this motor fails, at least I will know what needs to be done..

Cheers

#6 djellum

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 05:38 PM

with the weber you really only need to have a couple vacuum lines. get a few feet of new hose and run the carb to the distributor vacuum advance, manifold to the heater controls behind the passenger strut tower. hook up the EGR if you want to run it. for testing purposes I would leave it unhooked till you get it running right and then hook it back up.

if your AC needs something leave that hooked up as well, idk if there are any vacuum things associated with them. Unless the AC runs off of the other valves then you dont need them. thermo-vacuum valve, anti afterfire valve, etc are all just potential leak problems at this point. use soem carb cleaner spray to check for leaks, just give a quick spray on the lines and if the motor rpm changes you have an issue to check on.

couple of things to note,
1) make sure when your rerouting hoses that you keep your pcv system running correctly
2) make sure that your tank vent line is open to the air or is ran someplace where it can vent properly (charcoal canister, air cleaner housing, etc)
3)check for a fuel return line. the origional carburator had a fuel line, fuel return line, and tank vent line that were hooked to the carb/aribox. you dont have to run fuel returns and such with a weber but you can, and there are specific ways each type is plumbed.

first fix all the air leaks you can, then throw a tune on the carburetor and see where you are at.

another thing to check is the distributor. pull a vacuum on the advance can (with a vacuum pump or just suck on the hose) and see if the air bleeds out. if so the vac advance is bad. also twist the rotor a bit and see if it springs back to position correctly.

#7 DT250a

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 09:53 PM

Here is a little update:

Above I stated that the distributor was hooked to the front of the Weber. It is NOT. It has a short soft line that hooks to a hard line that travels under the manifold. I'm assuming it goes to the thermo vacuum switch? Is this ok? Why does everyone say to hook it to the right port on front of Weber?

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#8 DT250a

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 09:59 PM

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Here is a pic of the vacuum ports / lines that I addressed.

The canister above the PS strut for heater controls had a line running forward that was just laying there. The end looked like it had broken off of whatever it was plugged to. I plugged it into a hard line sticking straight up out of the manifold per pic below. I then plugged two additional soft lines coming out of the manifold hard lines per pic. These lines went to the factory air cleaner assembly.

After I did this, it ran smoother with much less bog when gassing it from idle. It also started smoking a little blue (oil). Is there a way for the engine to suck oil & burn it if vacuum lines are incorrect?

My PCV routing is as follows:

Drivers side goes into manifold under back of Weber carb.

Passenger side goes into air cleaner for fresh air draw.

What is correct & what isn't?

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#9 DT250a

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 10:04 PM

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Here is a video. There is a whistle at idle that my father says wasn't there before. Under load it goes away ie. put in drive & give a little gas with brakes on.

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At this point I'm thinking I need to re plumb the vacuum system to the bare essentials; heater controls, distributor, brake booster, transmission vacuum modulator. After I get the carb tuned & running well I would then incorporate the EGR & thermo vacuum switch. I guess I can ditch the ASV (what is it called?)?

The problem is that while mechanics aren't new to me, vacuum & emmission systems are. So I don't know how to bypass the EGR & thermo switch. I guess I could run the dist straight to the carb, leave the brake booster & trans modulator where they are, and run the heater controls to where? or are they in the right spot? Then anything left just plug?

Help!

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#10 DT250a

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 10:15 PM

with the weber you really only need to have a couple vacuum lines. get a few feet of new hose and run the carb to the distributor vacuum advance,


WHAT SIZE?

manifold to the heater controls behind the passenger strut tower.


WHICH PORT ON MANIFOLD?

hook up the EGR if you want to run it. for testing purposes I would leave it unhooked till you get it running right and then hook it back up.


WHAT DO I DO TO UNHOOK IT? AS FAR AS I CAN TELL THERE IS AN EGR THING ON THE PS WITH 5/8" OR SO GOING ACROSS THE ENGINE TO A BLACK BOX NEXT TO THE DISTRIBUTOR.

if your AC needs something leave that hooked up as well, idk if there are any vacuum things associated with them. Unless the AC runs off of the other valves then you dont need them. thermo-vacuum valve, anti afterfire valve, etc are all just potential leak problems at this point. use soem carb cleaner spray to check for leaks, just give a quick spray on the lines and if the motor rpm changes you have an issue to check on.


WONT CARB CLEANER EAT RUBBER STUFF? IS THERE A SAFER ALTERNATIVE? DEEP CREEP MAYBE?

couple of things to note,
1) make sure when your rerouting hoses that you keep your pcv system running correctly


HOW DO I KNOW IF IT IS OR ISN'T? i EXPLAINED HOW IT IS ROUTED ABOVE.

2) make sure that your tank vent line is open to the air or is ran someplace where it can vent properly (charcoal canister, air cleaner housing, etc)
3)check for a fuel return line. the origional carburator had a fuel line, fuel return line, and tank vent line that were hooked to the carb/aribox. you dont have to run fuel returns and such with a weber but you can, and there are specific ways each type is plumbed.


first fix all the air leaks you can, then throw a tune on the carburetor and see where you are at.


HOW DO I KNOW NO LEAKS EXIST, SPRAY TEST?

another thing to check is the distributor. pull a vacuum on the advance can (with a vacuum pump or just suck on the hose) and see if the air bleeds out. if so the vac advance is bad. also twist the rotor a bit and see if it springs back to position correctly.


i DON'T HAVE ANY VACUUM TOOLS / PUMPS, BUT THAT HAS BEEN ON THE TOOL LIST FOR A LONG TIME SO I WILL HAVE TO PURCHASE A KIT. HARBOR FREIGHT SHOULD WORK UNLESS I FIND SOMETHING LOCAL.

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#11 DT250a

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 10:19 PM

If you live around there, this area would be great for anyone who wants to test out their off-road project.


I'm about 6 hours from Lake Owyhee but might be in the Caldwell area with the soobie soon.

If I have any more insight into your problem, I'll let you know. What kind of mileage do you get with the carb? Mine is a pathetic 20 mpg or so with the turbo.


My father claimed 23 with the Hitachi carb & 25 with the Weber. I haven't really driven the car.

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#12 MilesFox

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 10:19 PM

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#13 DT250a

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 10:27 PM

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Thanks for the diagram MilesFox.

Since I have the Weber, much of it doesn't apply, but I'm assuming the EGR components do?

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#14 djellum

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 01:14 AM

the EGR (round valve direct mounted to the back PS of the manifold) will have 2 lines, one is a small vacuum line like all the rest. that is what actuates the baffle inside to allow the exhaust gas to enter the manifold when your at cruising speed. the large line goes to the Anti Afterfire Valve. the actual EGR aspect is done internally so you can disconnect and plug the anti-afterfire valve hose. leaving the small vacuum line on works the egr, and disconnecting it stops it from working.

dont use the little hardline tubes that go under the manifold. just run the vacuum lines straight to whatever you want. the hard lines are just tubes, they dont attach to anything. if you ever take off the manifold you can remove them. I hooked my heater to the manifold port right below the carb on the back of the manifold (probably have to T it with your EGR). ultimately doesnt matter though. make sure any actual ports off of the manifold or carb are plugged in, or plugged with a vacuum plug.

the reason plugging in the heater controls helped is you fixed a vacuum leak. the vacuum leaks (what I was reffering to by air leak) need to get patched up before you can really do much trouble shooting. i don't know what actual size they are, just bring one with you to the store. make sure any actual ports off of the manifold or carb are plugged in, or plugged with a vacuum plug.

the black plastic box by the distributor is probably an ASV (air suction valve) system silencer. it shouldnt be running to your EGR, it should run from an ASV valve that is mounted to the block and runs a hard line to the exhaust. there should be one on both sides. remove both silencers and plug the large lines down by the ASV valve. it just pumps air into your exhaust, but if its leaking it creates an exhaust leak.

PCV needs clean air in the passenger side, and the drivers side routed to the pcv valve in the manifold. use a genuine subaru pcv valve, not an aftermarket. sometimes a restrictor or small vent tube is used to help keep it from using too much oil.

you shouldnt be spraying lots of carb cleaner around, just a very quick spray and see if the rpm increases, if so then you have a vacuum leak and its pulling in the cleaner. whatever you use has to be flammable. alchohol isnt good for rubber, but you shouldnt need much.

with perfect hitachi, 30ish mpg should be doable, mines fully plugged and all emissions removed, gets 26-28. with a weber you should be able to get the same, but people generally see a loss of 1-2 mpg. I would say that until you get 25 or higher with the weber, then you have some more tuning to do.

You need to have -
1) pcv valve hooked up
2) Ported vacuum from the carb to the distributor (ported means it increases vacuum when the rpms increase)
3) A manifold vacuum line going to the heater canister.
4) A manifold vacuum line going to the EGR.
5) Whatever vacuum lines you need for the transmission and AC. I dont know exactly but they should be hooked to either the carb or manifold as appropriate.

Start there, run each individually with new hose, bypassing whatever used to be hooked up. then plug or remove the unneeded stuff and see where your at.

ill take pic of mine where I have everything plugged off or plugged in.

#15 DT250a

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:49 AM

[quote name='djellum']

with perfect hitachi, 30ish mpg should be doable, mines fully plugged and all emissions removed, gets 26-28. with a weber you should be able to get the same, but people generally see a loss of 1-2 mpg. I would say that until you get 25 or higher with the weber, then you have some more tuning to do.[/QUOTE]

Don't forget I have a three speed automatic & selectable 4WD. It's never gotten great mileage. [/QUOTE]


[quote name='djellum']
You need to have -
1) pcv valve hooked up
2) Ported vacuum from the carb to the distributor (ported means it increases vacuum when the rpms increase)
3) A manifold vacuum line going to the heater canister.
4) A manifold vacuum line going to the EGR.
5) Whatever vacuum lines you need for the transmission and AC. I dont know exactly but they should be hooked to either the carb or manifold as appropriate.

Start there, run each individually with new hose, bypassing whatever used to be hooked up. then plug or remove the unneeded stuff and see where your at.

ill take pic of mine where I have everything plugged off or plugged in.[/QUOTE]

I can do that. I think I will get a new PCV too.

First I will plumb the distributor directly to the carb. I like to change one thing at a time to minimize confusion & compounded problems.

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#16 DT250a

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 12:44 PM

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I'm going to do a seafoam treatment to my engine.

I plan on sucking half a can into a vacuum port ( which one?), or should I just pour in into the carb while holding the throttle open a bit?

Then I will put the rest in the tank.

If you have an opinion on which vacuum port to use, or prefer to pour directly into carb, let me know.

Thanks

#17 Sonicfrog

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 01:08 PM

Somewhere down the line, you might consider doing the 3 A/T to 5 speed manual swap. The 3 speed A/T was designed in a time where the maximum speed on the freeway was 55 MPH. That tranny was fine for that speed. Once you get to 70 though, you're up to 4000 RPM's, and your gas mileage will suffer.

I did the swap, and gained about 5 points on the highway MPG rating. Didn't make as much of a difference in the city, but gained a couple of points there too.

#18 Subruise

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 02:26 PM

um, where did you get gl 10 from? that looks like a 87 gl to me. every gl10 ive ever seen, carb or not, had gl10 badges, rear disc brakes, and a turbo. furthermore, not nitpicking just asking, and that is my favorite soob color.

Edited by Subruise, 06 September 2012 - 02:32 PM.


#19 djellum

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 03:02 PM

you dont need to go through a vacuum line for seafoam. that instruction is for fuel injection cars so you dont mess up any pre manifold sensors.

just pour it lightly into the carb while running. let it stumble for a bit then put enough in to kill the motor. let it sit, then watch the smoke show.


I would wait till you get all the other stuff tightened up first though. the carb cant adjust like injection can, so you will notice it running different on the tank with the foam in it (at least I did). I have almost always noticed the best results 1-2 tanks after running it through.


you prob will get worse mileage from the auto, but I would still expect mid/high 20's from a well running one, provided your driving right.

Edited by djellum, 06 September 2012 - 03:07 PM.


#20 DT250a

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 05:26 PM

um, where did you get gl 10 from? that looks like a 87 gl to me. every gl10 ive ever seen, carb or not, had gl10 badges, rear disc brakes, and a turbo. furthermore, not nitpicking just asking, and that is my favorite soob color.


Ooooooops . . . . . That makes sense. Two weeks ago I knew nothing about Subarus whatsoever. My father told me it was a GL-10 so I went with it. The 6th digit of the VIN is a '5', so I'm assuming it's a GL wagon with engine code '5'.

Any way a moderator could omit the '-10' from my title?

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#21 DT250a

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 06:35 PM

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I just found the whistle source from my video.

Vacuum leak in the adapter plates at rear of carb.

I tightened the carb nuts & it got less but wouldn't go away.

I put my finger over the lower joint and it stopped.

Gonna have to pull the carb & tighten the screws that are currently not accessible.

.

#22 Sonicfrog

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 06:54 PM

um, where did you get gl 10 from? that looks like a 87 gl to me. every gl10 ive ever seen, carb or not, had gl10 badges, rear disc brakes, and a turbo. furthermore, not nitpicking just asking, and that is my favorite soob color.


I was wondering that too! :D

I do have a real live 1987 GL-10. Same color as yours. Your body and paint looks a little cleaner than mine. My interior is very nice though. Dark brown too.

#23 DT250a

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 07:44 PM

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Success!

Took the adapter plates down to the bottom one. Screws were about finger tight. One of them was a torx-30. The mechanic who installed the kit must have buggered up the head. Or the kit was missing a screw?

I tightened using a hand held impact driver. Light taps as I had visions of cracked & crumbling aluminum.

While the carb was off I installed a new vacuum line to the right ported tap. I then plugged the end & left it dangling. (only change one thing at a time)

Upon start up there was no more squeal & it seemed to idle a little lower and more steady. I then cut the new vacuum hose off the ported carb outlet to the proper length to reach the disty. At idle I felt no vacuum on the ported line, & strong vacuum when revving the engine. Cool! I then pulled the old hose off the disty, & pushed on the new ported line. (all this with engine running) I felt the old hose for vacuum pull. I felt none at idle, & none while revving the engine. Hmmmm . . . . engine was warm too, so no thermo switch issues. I plugged the old hose for now & it's time for a test drive.

Oh - and total number of nuts & washers dropped into the intake manifold - 0 . . . whew . . .

.

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Edited by DT250a, 06 September 2012 - 07:47 PM.


#24 DT250a

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 07:51 PM

.

One of my next tasks will be running a manual choke cable from the cabin to the carb. It's going to take a sort of 'S' shaped routing that I don't know if the cable can handle or not.

It was suggested to have a pivot point or linkage bolted into the manifold near the carb to overcome the angle issue.

If anyone has routed their cable successfully, I would love to see a photo & hear some tips.

.

So . . . . at this point it seems to be running healthy. Any reason not to take it on a little trip? 130 miles each way?

.

#25 Subruise

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:27 PM

two weeks huh? you found this place quick! while your car doesnt have rear discs (yet?) at least it doesnt have a ea82t. plus you already have the weber. this car should serve you well.




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