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Morning bog down.. rpm issues


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#51 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:22 AM

Yeah, grabbing spares won't hurt.. however, I believe only an EA82 CTS will work... idk if SPFI/MPFI matters, but the EJs all use a different sensor...

Also, in front of the the white vacuum canister on the pass side firewall, there is a small black square thing marked "A/C". Unplug/remove the fuse and you should be good to go. The defrost feature will still work on the dash and the vents will still move, just your A/C contols for the compressor will be inop. It should also nix the signal to the ECU. Even then, the only reason the defrost worked well is due to the dry air produced by a/c system. The temperature is pretty irrelevant..

#52 jj421

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:45 PM

Yeah, I think I can only pull a CTS off of an EA82 non-turbo. One of the CTSs on RockAuto said "W/O TURBO," so I believe they do vary. I don't really like pulling engine parts off of turbo wagons since quite a few parts are different.

Wait, so that 20 amp fuse on the passenger side is the fuse for the A/C? I don't see it marked "A/C" anywhere, so I'll take your word for it. I've wondered what that fuse was there for. I took out the fuse, so I'll see how it goes on my way to the Pick-N-Pull today.

#53 AKghandi

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:42 PM

so just for shiggles i did a 0-60 video:burnout:



#54 l75eya

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:45 PM

That's pretty impressive. One of these days I'll get around to doing my own..

#55 AKghandi

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:06 PM

Thanks! I like to think its pretty fast, any faster and it will get me in trouble.:burnout:

#56 88wacaroo

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:59 PM

Thanks! I like to think its pretty fast, any faster and it will get me in trouble.:burnout:

My 90 loyale cold start does about 1400rpm but I kick it down and then it does 11to-1200,but I can drive out the gate no issue at all, but if I remember from o.p.p.[other peep problems] it seemed like the throttle body [injector] had issues with the cold start+bogging till warm up so I"d change that it seem to fix it but u have to be careful if u get one from a yard. Good luck

#57 RXJ

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:46 PM

Wait, so that 20 amp fuse on the passenger side is the fuse for the A/C? I don't see it marked "A/C" anywhere, so I'll take your word for it. I've wondered what that fuse was there for. I took out the fuse, so I'll see how it goes on my way to the Pick-N-Pull today.


heyyy...i thought that fuse had something to do with the 4wd..of course mine's only 15amp and says nothing on it about ac but is right next to the white canister...

..i too removed my AC compressor so i'm all ears..

#58 jj421

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:31 PM

heyyy...i thought that fuse had something to do with the 4wd..of course mine's only 15amp and says nothing on it about ac but is right next to the white canister...

..i too removed my AC compressor so i'm all ears..


I took out the fuse this morning, and drove to the Pick-N-Pull (about a 40 minute drive) with the defog on the entire time. I noticed that it did help the high idle. With the defog on, it would idle at about 1100 or so, which is higher than the usual 800 RPM idle, but that could be because of the long freeway journey.

I was curious about the 4WD so I went out there and tested it. Pushed the 4WD button. The 4WD indicator lights on the instrument cluster lit up, the RPMs dropped a tad bit, and I could hear the solenoid (I believe) engaging the 4WD. So that's all working fine.

On another note, what size wrench is needed to take off the coolant temp sensor? At the Pick-N-Pull, all the EA82s there had CTSs, so I started working on the cleanest, newest looking one (car only had 130,000 miles). It was a pain to get to, and when I finally did, I didn't have the right size wrench. The largest I had was a 15mm, and some guy let me borrow his 16mm. It almost fit, but the nut on the CTS was just slightly bigger, like an American wrench slightly bigger than 16mm. None of us had a 17mm wrench nor any American sizes similar to 16mm, so I had to leave without a CTS. :(

#59 88wacaroo

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:48 PM

I took out the fuse this morning, and drove to the Pick-N-Pull (about a 40 minute drive) with the defog on the entire time. I noticed that it did help the high idle. With the defog on, it would idle at about 1100 or so, which is higher than the usual 800 RPM idle, but that could be because of the long freeway journey.

I was curious about the 4WD so I went out there and tested it. Pushed the 4WD button. The 4WD indicator lights on the instrument cluster lit up, the RPMs dropped a tad bit, and I could hear the solenoid (I believe) engaging the 4WD. So that's all working fine.

On another note, what size wrench is needed to take off the coolant temp sensor? At the Pick-N-Pull, all the EA82s there had CTSs, so I started working on the cleanest, newest looking one (car only had 130,000 miles). It was a pain to get to, and when I finally did, I didn't have the right size wrench. The largest I had was a 15mm, and some guy let me borrow his 16mm. It almost fit, but the nut on the CTS was just slightly bigger, like an American wrench slightly bigger than 16mm. None of us had a 17mm wrench nor any American sizes similar to 16mm, so I had to leave without a CTS. :(

Bummer about cts part...about the fuse thing 1 is for the a/c,now if there is 2 one is for the a/c the other for disconnecting the auto trans for towing [sub gods forbid] so trans doesnt get screwed up;)

Edited by 88wacaroo, 25 November 2012 - 11:54 PM.


#60 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:49 PM

No label? hmm.. Mine ('91) has got it labeled A/C. Anyway, I know the 4EAT has the "FWD" fuse in the same location on the imprezas and legacies, but the push-button 4WD I believe has a 4WD fuse in the fuse center OR it just auto-disengages when the power/vac is cut..

Anyway, glad to head that! It shouldn't throw a CEL either since it's not really an engine management parameter...

#61 jj421

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:36 PM

Bump & Update

Alright, first gonna update with the fuse, defog, high idle, etc. Since taking out the fuse, driving has been wonderful. I can now drive all the time with the defog on and not worry about the idle speed. I really needed this, since my rear windows would just fog up non-stop. Now with the new fan speed switch I pulled from the junkyard today, it's gonna be awesome to have the defog on more than just two speeds. :-p

And while I was at the junkyard, I pulled off two coolant temp sensors with my new 17mm wrench. Came home and let the car sit for three hours. After doing a multimeter test, I decided to install the one that seemed the most different than my current one. I just finished installing it, and after starting it, it seems like I'm in the same boat as everyone else: idling at 2000 RPM for 5 minutes after a cold start. :banana: Gonna have to wait and see what happens tomorrow, but I think my low idle issue is resolved. I should be able to drive my Loyale in the rapidly approaching winter temperatures. :)

#62 AKghandi

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:20 AM

Bump & Update

Alright, first gonna update with the fuse, defog, high idle, etc. Since taking out the fuse, driving has been wonderful. I can now drive all the time with the defog on and not worry about the idle speed. I really needed this, since my rear windows would just fog up non-stop. Now with the new fan speed switch I pulled from the junkyard today, it's gonna be awesome to have the defog on more than just two speeds. :-p

And while I was at the junkyard, I pulled off two coolant temp sensors with my new 17mm wrench. Came home and let the car sit for three hours. After doing a multimeter test, I decided to install the one that seemed the most different than my current one. I just finished installing it, and after starting it, it seems like I'm in the same boat as everyone else: idling at 2000 RPM for 5 minutes after a cold start. :banana: Gonna have to wait and see what happens tomorrow, but I think my low idle issue is resolved. I should be able to drive my Loyale in the rapidly approaching winter temperatures. :)




I'm glad you got it figured out!:clap:

now you can get more dashcam videos!:D

#63 jj421

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:12 PM

I'm glad you got it figured out!:clap:

now you can get more dashcam videos!:D


Yes! Winter dash cam videos yield the worst drivers. Just gotta hope an idiot doesn't crash into me. :brow:

#64 RXJ

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:40 PM

heyyy...i thought that fuse had something to do with the 4wd..of course mine's only 15amp and says nothing on it about ac but is right next to the white canister...

..i too removed my AC compressor so i'm all ears..




here's the general location of the fuse I'm about to question....follow the two black boxes and you'll see a smaller one hanging out there at the end

edit:
( just to be more clear, that's the spare tire in the background fastened down where it's supposed to be under the hood)

Posted Image

this one, 15amps with the nike swoosh...what is it??
Posted Image

while i'm posting pics, what's that straight slotted screw on the side of the TB?? (to the left of the IACV)
Posted Image

I'm glad you got your situation under control jj421....like i said I too removed my AC compressor (and condenser) so if removing a fuse helps, i'm all ears...

that said my engine is idling like a dream today after a warm up session, plus turning the manual throttle stop screw down a few turns.....
was very interested in all the coolant temp sensor talk and determined this HAD to be my problem (also based on the following attached cut and paste from random internet searching)....
anyway, i had her idling beautifully.....then decided to disconnect the CTS wires..once I did, the rpms moved upward to 1350 rpms (from 1000)....i reconnected and the rpms went down to 1000 and stayed or dropped slightly below...so i'm assuming my CTS is actually doing it's job or at least it's doing something ..


sorry for the long post but here's some random info from internet today:
this is a response to someone with an idle prob....came from one of those "Ask and get your answer sites"....I think this guy may have his fans confused but is most of what he's saying correct? Does the CTS affect all of which he states?

"The simple solution will cost u about $20. Change out the Coolant temp sensor. Some people call them the master sensor,because they control so many things. Like the operation of your engine cooling fan, your on board computer takes readings off of this thing,and it not only controls your fan,but your FUEL. This little thing can cause all kinds of issues. Like over heating, running to rich or to lean. It can act like you have waterin your gas tank, or rotten varnish gas.it can drive you nuts. When you start hour motormin the morning this little sensor senses the temp ( of coarse) and tells the ECM the temp,in turn the ECM provides a richer fuel mixture when your car us cold.(modern choke if you will. The ECM also regulates how long the injector pulses are as well. As your engine warms up, this sensor tells the ECM, if it's working correctly,that the coolant is getting warmer as leans out your fuel mixture. This sensor can cause all kinds of havoc. Like it will start sometimes ok and at other times it won't or if it does it will be real heavy and want to die. Sometimes feathering the pedal will keep it alive but it will be stumbling to stay on and often die. Other times it will drive fine,then it will start bucking at all speeds,like it's loading up, or running to rich. This sensor can cause your engines fan not to come o. And cause overheating.it can also cause the fan to run when it shouldn't be. I had all of these problems,and rally thought that I hD some old gas a d it had started to varnish up everything, as my Subaru had sat for a couple of weeks while I changed out all of the wheel bearings.but after some detective work and a lot of reading I came to the conclusion that the culprit must be this sensor.I changed it out and now it runs great, and when I park it in the driveway and it reaches temp the driverside fan kicks on now. Can't remember the last time I heard it come on. Lol. The passenger side fan should come on when your AC is turned on, just so you know. And make sure when you put your filter cover and intake hose back on to get them on correctly, or you will get a resonating hum from hour air cleaner. The part is cheap, getting things out if the way to get to the sensor a little tuff, but it will I'm sure solve your problem. Good luck."


And then there was this thread from here a while ago
http://www.ultimates...ead.php?t=89128


again, sorry for how long this is but maybe for a future searcher this could all help....of course I'm still hoping to solve my own issues here...I can't drive my car away in the morn cause it'll bog down and die....can't leave the car cause the rpms increase durng the warm-up...i need to be there to tap it down...once wamred up she's a dream....

carry on
:-)

Edited by RXJ, 02 December 2012 - 09:11 PM.


#65 mikaleda

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:28 AM

I know Chevy is like that when coolant temp sensor goes out but I have no idea about Subaru temp sensors

#66 jj421

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:49 AM

Yes, that is the fuse. Pull that and your defog idle will be normal. Like I said, I had a 20 amp fuse in there. However, I think someone swapped out the 15 for a 20 sometime in the car's life, because the fuse was a yellow one, like one that you can buy from Ace Hardware (whereas the one in your picture has the Fuji Heavy Industries logo on it). Plus mine is missing that cover for the fuse. But anyways, yes, that is the fuse in question. Pulling that will tell the ECU that there is no A/C compressor anymore, and your idle will be fine. All your heating controls will work perfectly fine. Not sure if it throws a CEL code, because my CEL is on all the time for a stupid purge control solenoid. :banana: I actually thought something was wrong the other day when the CEL turned off for 5 minutes, then was relieved when it came back on, haha.

As far as that screw goes, I have no idea. Considering its location, I'd think it has to do something with the idle.

I heard you should never manually adjust the idle screw, but I don't know if I'm thinking of the right thing. It's 6:30 AM. Not thinking straight just yet. :rolleyes:

I would say you could replace your coolant temp sensor, especially if you're going to the junkyard any time soon. When your car's been sitting for hours and is nice n' cold, unplug the CTS and measure the resistance on the CTS side. The Chilton manual only give specifications when the engine is warm, but that doesn't help in finding a junkyard one.

My old CTS read 3.8 on the 20K Ohm setting on my multimeter. At the junkyard, I tested almost every CTS in every old Soob. Ended up pulling two CTSs that had the highest resistance. The one that I eventually put on my car read at almost 4, again, on the 20k setting. It was an educated guess, really. All the CTSs that I tested ranged from 3.7-4 on the multimeter, so I figured more resistance is better. Turns out I was right, haha.

Replacing the CTS isn't terribly difficult, just kinda hard to get to. A CTS from the junkyard is $7 or so (at least the one I went to), so if you can grab one or two, it won't hurt to replace it and see. Unscrew the two Phillips hex nuts on top of the thermostat that hold down the vacuum lines from the canister. Move those out of the way. Remove the vacuum line from the intake to the IACV. Either drain some coolant properly, or do it the way I did. Unbolt the thermostat housing and slowly let the coolant leak out until the coolant stops leaking. :drunk: With a 17mm wrench, loosen and remove the CTS. Let more coolant pour out of that hole. Install the new CTS, tighten. Then put everything back that your removed/loosened. Add some more coolant back into the system and start her up.

I can definitely see how the CTS could affect the electric fan from coming on. If the CTS is telling the car it's warm, when it's not, then the fan won't come on. Come to think of it, before I replaced my CTS, I have noticed that the temp gauge would rise up to about the halfway mark, and then the idle would return to normal and temp gauge would go down. So I think it could have something to do with it. All that other stuff in that quote definitely sounds plausible and makes sense. But I am not 100% sure.

*EDIT*

Looks like my cold idle is not completely fixed. I started the car this morning and it still wouldn't idle. I believe changing out the CTS helped, but not enough for the really cold mornings. Luckily I don't have school for the rest of December, so it won't bother me too much, I hope. I might just need a brand new CTS. Christmas is coming up, isn't it? :D

Edited by jj421, 03 December 2012 - 01:01 PM.


#67 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:55 AM

*EDIT*

Looks like my cold idle is not completely fixed. I started the car this morning and it still wouldn't idle. I believe changing out the CTS helped, but not enough for the really cold mornings. Luckily I don't have school for the rest of December, so it won't bother me too much, I hope. I might just need a brand new CTS. Christmas is coming up, isn't it? :D


Those values for cold aren't out of range.. I believe the ECU stops "measuring" the temp with values below 2k ohms (the "yeah, it's cold" range.. lol ) Once it starts to see 100*F, it it'll kick down the idle to about 1500 or so, then when it gets closer to the hotter temp, the ohms become managable and it fine tunes the fuel trim and lets the ECU modify timing and fuel for idle...

I'm also hunting a hunting idle, slight miss and low economy.. all the sensors come out, but are all original. And I'm starting to look at the O2 and MAF sensors. Does anyone have value ranges for the MAF? It works and has the starting voltage and ground specs out, but I don't know if it's feeding the ECU bad values, or what.. maybe the O2 sensor is feeding wrong voltages..

Anyway, try unplugging the MAF. OR pull the lower panel off under the dash, start it, and watch that LED. From what I've read, it should NOT blink/light/shudder when it's cold or at idle for too long. That O2 monitor lamp should only work when it's hot enough since it relies on the exhaust gas to heat the element to work. If the ECU is reading it at cold, it could be forcing a closed loop when it should be open... just spitballing.. :drunk:

#68 RXJ

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:17 PM

Anyway, try unplugging the MAF. OR pull the lower panel off under the dash, start it, and watch that LED. From what I've read, it should NOT blink/light/shudder when it's cold or at idle for too long. That O2 monitor lamp should only work when it's hot enough since it relies on the exhaust gas to heat the element to work. If the ECU is reading it at cold, it could be forcing a closed loop when it should be open... just spitballing.. :drunk:


The other day my car was idling fine after an extended warm up..and it normally does.. but I kept her running while looking around the engine...I started pulling things...when I pulled the plug for the MAF the car shut off immediately.... Normal??

I'm noticing also noticing low fuel economy..

#69 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:08 PM

Honestly, I tried driving around with it unplugged once to compare driveability, and it was about the same, however, cold idle was non-existant. In fact, it stalled twice on me until it warmed up a bit..

Unplug it while it's running and see if it helps. Since all that MAF is is a calibrated wire that passes air over it, the wire could be grounding out or the element could be getting tired (i.e. not reacting to moving air as much until it's warmed up. Much like points with worn contacts...)

I'm going to order a new O2 sensor along with new inner tie rods (since the good ones are being discontinued at the local parts houses.. :dead: ) and ATTEMPT to pull the old one out w/o killing the converter... :drunk:

#70 RXJ

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:28 PM

Unplug it while it's running and see if it helps. Since all that MAF is is a calibrated wire that passes air over it, the wire could be grounding out or the element could be getting tired (i.e. not reacting to moving air as much until it's warmed up. Much like points with worn contacts...)


that was my point..I did un-plug it while it was running...the engine had been idling smoothly for a long time... she died immediately...maybe that's not supposed to happen..i dunno.....interesting that you were driving with yours unplugged....back to the drawing board for me...

carry on
:-)

#71 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:51 PM

Now that IS interesting... mine was doing it's own popping routine at idle like it does, and I can hear the injector hiss and the motor bucks randomly (slightly) in sync with the "extra" injector pulse. Then when I unplug it, the idle raises about 200 RPM, then settles back down. Hmm... Have you checked the voltages in/out and ground resistance with the sensor plugged in and running?

However, I'm also starting to suspect the TPS. I replaced mine about 3 months ago with a BWD/Intermotor part (it was actually an OEM Hitachi sensor with the Fuji symbol stamped in it! :banana: ) and was having an... interesting... time adjusting it. However, when I give it part throttle, it sort of does the flat, take-off, flat, stumble, then work flawlessly after 3k RPM... Need a needle multimeter (cause the digital one won't give me the smoothness a sweep-needle one will...) to see if the new TPS has a dead zone at all..

I wish I had a plug in monitor/factory scanner, but I can't even find the dealer service dept ones... let alone a name/model.. :(

#72 RXJ

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 04:43 AM

Problem solved.... and this problem was not confined to winter start ups, it lingered well into this summer, wasn't getting any better..

 

I previously swapped out my air control module, cleaned the Mass Air flow sensor...

 

I haven't re-read this thread but am sure the answer was offered .....it was the Coolant Temperature Sensor......BUT in the process of ordering the Coolant temp sensor I made a mistake and ordered a the fan switch sensor (which screws into the radiator)...so what the hell, threw that in too.

 

Both Coolant Temperature switch and Coolant Temperature Sensor went in on the same day but I believe the Coolant Temp Sensor was the culprit.

 

As long as I was screwing around I threw in a new thermostat...

 

Take from all of this what you will.

 

The car is running better she than ever and now belongs to my kid.

 

MAny Many thanks to everyone here






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