29 replies to this topic

[jj421]

I have solved this issue. Resolution is in post #23.

So tonight, as I was leaving for work, I went to start my car only for it to do nothing. There's not much I can say explaining the issue. Battery is good, and I have battery power. Fusible links are good (even though I need a new wire). All fuses are fine. My car started normally yesterday, and the day before, and the day before, etc. So basically what happens is when I turn the key to the start position, it just clicks over and over again. Click, click, click, click. The voltmeter registers about 3-4 volts are being used to power the starter, so that leads me to believe it isn't the ignition switch. So yeah, I don't know. I took a video of the issue, so click on this link:



It's nighttime, so yeah, haha. Is this a bad starter? I'm not sure where the starter is, so I can't whack it and see if that works. Plus, it's dark outside, so kinda hard to look in the engine aimlessly. :-p Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Oh, and it's a '90 Loyale, EA82, SPFI, 5-speed, if that makes a difference.

Edited by jj421, 08 October 2012 - 12:27 AM.

[Prwa101]

Is say its not the starter clicking, it'll click rappedly. Not what yours is making. If replace the ignition relay, that's prolly what's clicking. You can also do a jumper test, get a pair of jumper cables, hook one on the starter signal wire that's coming from the can, smaller red wire, and the hook the other end on the power in wire going from the battery to the starter, and the other ends hook togeather, should turn over.( so the cables make a U.)

Check your voltages on the relay.

And if you can start it with the jumpers, and am tired of tinkering around with it, I had the same problem your having so I just wired in a new wire from the signal starter wire (small red plug) and wired that to the ignition switch, in the "start" position

Good luck!

-Prwa

[leniac]

its sounds like the starter is stuck... the power is on but something is stuck... mechanically.

[jj421]

Is say its not the starter clicking, it'll click rappedly. Not what yours is making. If replace the ignition relay, that's prolly what's clicking. You can also do a jumper test, get a pair of jumper cables, hook one on the starter signal wire that's coming from the can, smaller red wire, and the hook the other end on the power in wire going from the battery to the starter, and the other ends hook togeather, should turn over.( so the cables make a U.)

Check your voltages on the relay.

Thanks for the reply! It looks like an ignition relay is only $12.99 at O'Reilly, but it'll take a day or so to get it in store. I might just go ahead and replace that, since it is pretty cheap. I don't actually have a multimeter, so I can't check the voltages. I should buy one. Plus I don't know where the relay is (ignorance strikes again!).

its sounds like the starter is stuck... the power is on but something is stuck... mechanically.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

I think what I will do is take the starter out (once I find it) and in the morning, go down to O'Reilly and have them test it. If the starter is bad, I can get a remanufactured one (which they apparently have in-stock) and get the core value on my old one. Then, of course have them test the remanufactured one, because I know starters can be bad from when you buy them. If my current starter is not bad, I will buy an ignition relay and if I order it early enough in the morning, they should have it in stock in the evening.

And while I'm there, I should buy a multimeter and a test light (need one for a separate poject). Thanks again for the replies!

[djellum]

the starter should be just above the trans on the drivers side.

you might also try turning the motor over by hand, the jam might not be the starter. only takes a second to check with a wrench.

I would go to a decent hardware store and get a meter. the ones at the auto parts store are probably serviceable, but I think you will find a better deal on a better meter at parkrose, or even sears. you dont really need one for this, you can manually test the starter by jumping it like described or take it in to have it tested. never hurts to aquire tools though.

[GeneralDisorder]

Battery is dead or you have a bad cable or end. Power is not getting to the starter.

DO NOT trade in a factory starter for some Mexican reman POS. Get contacts from the dealer if you must ($10). I can tell you that you don't have a starter problem anyway and there is no ignition relay in these cars. You have a power supply or battery issue.

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 07 October 2012 - 07:36 AM.

[jj421]

the starter should be just above the trans on the drivers side.

DO NOT trade in a factory starter for some Mexican reman POS.

I managed to find the starter last night, but thanks anyways. And as it turns out, it is not the factory starter. It has a sticker on it saying it is a remanufactured starter from NAPA. So it'd be trading in a Mexican reman POS for a Mexican reman POS. :-p

you might also try turning the motor over by hand, the jam might not be the starter. only takes a second to check with a wrench.

Well, I just went out there to test it, and I can't move the crankshaft pulley no matter what I do. I mean, I don't have a wrench/socket big enough to turn the nut on the crankshaft pulley, but I can't turn it by pulling on the belt, nor can I turn it from using a wrench to turn the other pulleys. The other day when I was replacing my belt, I was able to turn the belt and all the other pulleys by simply using a wrench on the water pump pulley. So, could my engine be seized? And the starter is just not able to turn the engine over, so it just clicks? The belt/pulleys seem much stiffer than before. And I guess the day before, I kinda had an "incident". I came home, and we had guests over. All the parking places in my driveway were full, so I was trying to move my car around on the front yard/our secondary, gravel driveway. Of course, it was on a hill, and the gravel/grass is soft, so I ended up doing a burnout or two, trying to move forward. Had to put it in 4WD to get out. When I turned the car off and got out, I did notice a funny smell, but thought that was nothing more than the tires spinning against gravel/grass. The car has 258K miles on it, and I don't believe it's ever been driven very hard, so could this cause the engine being seized? Or could I just be worrying a bit too much, and it's something else causing the jam? Oh, and if it's important to mention, the belt liked to squeal occasionally; maybe once or twice a day.

Battery is dead or you have a bad cable or end. Power is not getting to the starter.

My battery is not dead. I have plenty of battery power and I have had no symptoms of a dying battery/alternator. It'd more likely be a bad cable or connection, because there is a little rust on the positive battery terminal, and it looked like the connection from the battery on the starter was kinda rusted. But, of course, the engine being seized is a bit a of a bigger issue now, haha.

I can tell you that you don't have a starter problem anyway and there is no ignition relay in these cars.

Yeah, I figured that out last night after some research too, haha.

Edited by jj421, 07 October 2012 - 02:17 PM.

[djellum]

make sure the car is out of gear. if you left it in gear you wont be able to turn it over. dont invent problems like a siezed motor, just follow the evidence. the starter might actually be bound which would cause it to not turn over by hand, but it could be something else entirely.

the click you hear may be the arm in the start going into place. the starter solinoid is on the starter and its job is to extend the gear out to touch the flywheel. they can often make a pronounced click, but it shouldnt be a click click click. it should be click once when engaging and once more when you let off the key. theres should be a small wire going to it, you can actuate it by giving it juice to see if it works.

check the connections and condition of the large power wire going to the starter. they can corrode on the inside with the same fuzz that collects on your battery so they dont always look bad. you should be able to roll back a litte of the outer wrap and see if its discolored and corroded. if so I'd replace it. if you do replace it cut the sheath off and take a look, you may be suprised at what you find.

start with the basics, make sure the motor spins, check your cables, try a known good battery (batteries can cause wierd problems even when they dont test out as bad). if this doesnt work run a remote start setup and bypass the ignition. remote starts are cheap and if the ignition is a problem it may show that. test the other stuff first though.

[Idasho]

That "click-click-click-click" is a relay wiggin out due to low voltage.

Grab a multimeter and verify battery voltage at rest, and as you are trying to crank it over.

[jj421]

make sure the car is out of gear. if you left it in gear you wont be able to turn it over. dont invent problems like a siezed motor, just follow the evidence. the starter might actually be bound which would cause it to not turn over by hand, but it could be something else entirely.

the click you hear may be the arm in the start going into place. the starter solinoid is on the starter and its job is to extend the gear out to touch the flywheel. they can often make a pronounced click, but it shouldnt be a click click click. it should be click once when engaging and once more when you let off the key. theres should be a small wire going to it, you can actuate it by giving it juice to see if it works.

check the connections and condition of the large power wire going to the starter. they can corrode on the inside with the same fuzz that collects on your battery so they dont always look bad. you should be able to roll back a litte of the outer wrap and see if its discolored and corroded. if so I'd replace it. if you do replace it cut the sheath off and take a look, you may be suprised at what you find.

start with the basics, make sure the motor spins, check your cables, try a known good battery (batteries can cause wierd problems even when they dont test out as bad). if this doesnt work run a remote start setup and bypass the ignition. remote starts are cheap and if the ignition is a problem it may show that. test the other stuff first though.

Yes, the car is out of gear when I try and turn the motor. It's still not budging.

I do hear the starter click, and then the repetitive clicking is something else. After many trial and error tests throughout the day, I really don't think it's the starter. It's something else. Like I said, the repetitive clicking is not coming from the starter, but it seems like the ignition switch. It sounds (and almost feels) like it's coming from the steering column/dashboard. So I'm thinking the ignition switch is toast, or something.

I wish I could take the starter out, but I can't. There are two hoses in the way, and they're filled with coolant (I believe), so I can't disconnect them. Not to mention the clutch is there, making things more difficult. So yeah, I can't get the starter out to take it down and have it tested.

That "click-click-click-click" is a relay wiggin out due to low voltage.

Grab a multimeter and verify battery voltage at rest, and as you are trying to crank it over.

I will run down and get one here in a couple hours, and I'll give it a test.

[jj421]

Grab a multimeter and verify battery voltage at rest, and as you are trying to crank it over.

Alright, so here are the multimeter tests:

At rest: ~12.55 volts
When trying to start: ~11.75 volts after a few seconds of "cranking"



Sound is pretty crappy, but you can hear the one click from the starter. The repetitive clicks that follow are only heard from the inside, around the ignition switch.

So, I don't know 100% what these numbers mean. But I believe 12.55 volts means my battery is still good, but I think 11.75 volts is not enough. The voltmeter on the instrument cluster dips to ~9 volts when I "crank" it. But likewise, it reads ~11.85 volts when the key is in the "on" position. I don't think there is enough voltage going to the starter, which would mean I should replace the wires going to the starter? But again, I don't know how much voltage is needed or anything.

I also picked up a test light while I was at O'Reilly, so if needed, I can use that to test anything. Picked up a Chilton manual as well, but I don't think anything of use towards this problem could be found in there. :-p

[Idasho]

There we go. Now we know that the batteries are good, and we can look elsewhere.


Start double and triple checking connections, and focus on GROUNDS.

And have you checked fuses? (obvious I know, but have to ask)

Most cars have a primary ground under the dash. Look for it.

[tractor pole]

Did you try tapping on the starter with a hammer?
Sometimes that will work if the contacts are on the way out.

[jj421]

There we go. Now we know that the batteries are good, and we can look elsewhere.


Start double and triple checking connections, and focus on GROUNDS.

And have you checked fuses? (obvious I know, but have to ask)

Most cars have a primary ground under the dash. Look for it.

Glad I can finally move forward with this, at least a little if anything. :-p

Check the fuses? Yeah, first thing I did (after checking the fusible links), haha.

The three wires attached to the starter look fine; not severely corroded or anything, just a little dirty. Kinda hard to get to and look at with those two coolant hoses in the way. Also, not exactly sure which ones are the ground wires. It looks like the negative wire for the battery goes to the starter, as well as the positive wire.

I am not seeing a ground underneath the dash. I know there is what looks like a main ground from the battery (I believe) to the body right above the driver's side headlight, but I know that is working as I've almost burned myself accidentally touching it a few times. :-p

Did you try tapping on the starter with a hammer?
Sometimes that will work if the contacts are on the way out.

Haha, yes, I tried that a few hours ago. Hit the positive terminal on the battery a few times; no luck. Hit the starter a few times; no luck. Took off the casing on the steering column and hit the ignition switch a few times; no luck.

[Prwa101]

Did you try the jumping the starter trick?

Like I said in my first post, not the starter.... I'm starting to wonder if anyone watches that video haha.

Check you voltage on the ignition relay.

[jj421]

Did you try the jumping the starter trick?

Like I said in my first post, not the starter.... I'm starting to wonder if anyone watches that video haha.

Check you voltage on the ignition relay.

No, I haven't tried jumping the starter. Not quite sure about where to hook up the jumper cables on the starter. Plus, I'm kinda scared of electricity, and I hear there might be sparks. :-p And, when you jump the starter, would I need someone in the car holding the clutch down? In other words, when you hook everything up, will the starter engage by itself? Or do you need to go back in the car and turn the key like normal?

Checking the voltage on the ignition relay... well, apparently there isn't an ignition relay in my car. Do you mean the ignition switch? If so, what connection on the back of the switch would I put the multimeter probes? And would I turn the key to the start position, or what? I know nothing about electronics, haha.

[djellum]

in simple terms your ignition basically acts like a big toggle switch as far as the starter is concerned. if you watch a movie where they hotwire a car, they pull the wires out the bottom of the dash and bypass the ignition, essentially taking the switch out of the equation. you can do the same thing in the motor compartment.

there are probably 50 videos on youtube showing you how to do it.

Cant stress this enough though.

Make sure the care is not in gear or you could severly hurt yourself.

there may be sparks as well so watch it with the oil around the compartment. im not saying this to scare you, but I wouldnt try that until you can turn that motor by hand.

[jj421]

in simple terms your ignition basically acts like a big toggle switch as far as the starter is concerned. if you watch a movie where they hotwire a car, they pull the wires out the bottom of the dash and bypass the ignition, essentially taking the switch out of the equation. you can do the same thing in the motor compartment.

there are probably 50 videos on youtube showing you how to do it.

Cant stress this enough though.

Make sure the care is not in gear or you could severly hurt yourself.

there may be sparks as well so watch it with the oil around the compartment. im not saying this to scare you, but I wouldnt try that until you can turn that motor by hand.

I've always wanted to see someone hotwire a manual transmission car. It'd be funny if they forgot to push the clutch in and it was left in gear.

I'll take a look on YouTube for it. When I did a quick Google search for it, I just came up with how to jump start a car, not the starter. And of course; I never have my car in gear unless I'm on a really steep hill or if I'm driving.

So, I shouldn't try and jump the starter until I can turn the motor by hand? In that case, I'd be more than happy to hold off, haha. I can turn the power steering pulley, barely, but it's basically doing a "burnout." I am turning the pulley, but it's not turning the belt (therefore turning the other pulleys). It's just spinning there. I also couldn't help but notice a big chip in my crankshaft pulley last time I was looking at it.

[Prwa101]

No, I haven't tried jumping the starter. Not quite sure about where to hook up the jumper cables on the starter. Plus, I'm kinda scared of electricity, and I hear there might be sparks. :-p And, when you jump the starter, would I need someone in the car holding the clutch down? In other words, when you hook everything up, will the starter engage by itself? Or do you need to go back in the car and turn the key like normal?

Checking the voltage on the ignition relay... well, apparently there isn't an ignition relay in my car. Do you mean the ignition switch? If so, what connection on the back of the switch would I put the multimeter probes? And would I turn the key to the start position, or what? I know nothing about electronics, haha.

Your wanting the car in nutreal, Hook one on the little metal stub that the starter signal wire is ( pull it off) you'll see it its the smallest wire on the starter. Hook the other to the 12v power, then arch them with the other side by hooking them togeather. Creating a U. It's pretty simple. If you want to you can turn the key on and do it too and start it up. They make a button starter thing that does the same thing as the cables do. Make Sence?

I've done this many times, MAYBE a little spark but nothing that will harm anyone let alown catch oil on fire. Gas yes BECAUSE IT'S FLAMIBLE HAHA.



This is what your doing, but not with a screw drive because you can't get it in there.

Edited by Prwa101, 07 October 2012 - 10:24 PM.

[jj421]

Your wanting the car in nutreal, Hook one on the little metal stub that the starter signal wire is ( pull it off) you'll see it its the smallest wire on the starter. Hook the other to the 12v power, then arch them with the other side by hooking them togeather. Creating a U. It's pretty simple. If you want to you can turn the key on and do it too and start it up. They make a button starter thing that does the same thing as the cables do. Make Sence?

I've done this many times, MAYBE a little spark but nothing that will harm anyone let alown catch oil on fire. Gas yes BECAUSE IT'S FLAMIBLE HAHA.



This is what your doing, but not with a screw drive because you can't get it in there.

It kinda makes sense. I think I understand the first part, but I don't get the "then arch them with the other side by hooking them together, creating a U" part. I'm on YouTube now, trying to find some videos. Isn't there the option of running a jumper cable from the positive terminal on the battery to where the positive battery wire connects to the starter, to bypass that wire?

[Prwa101]

It kinda makes sense. I think I understand the first part, but I don't get the "then arch them with the other side by hooking them together, creating a U" part. I'm on YouTube now, trying to find some videos. Isn't there the option of running a jumper cable from the positive terminal on the battery to where the positive battery wire connects to the starter, to bypass that wire?

Okay... So hook one end of the jumper cables togeather (red black). You have a U. Now hook the other clamps from the jumper to the starter signal wire and the red hot 12v power. But you want to be able to control the power through the wires by the side you hook togeather. So hook the starter side up first and regulate it with the other side when you clamp it to it self.(part I described first, red black)

It's the same thing as in the video, the screw driver is the "U". The jumper cables are doing the same thing.

You could also just use a wire instead of jumper cables... Lol.

Edited by Prwa101, 07 October 2012 - 11:02 PM.

[jj421]

Okay... So hook one end of the jumper cables togeather (red black). You have a U. Now hook the other clamps from the jumper to the starter signal wire and the red hot 12v power. But you want to be able to control the power through the wires by the side you hook togeather. So hook the starter side up first and regulate it with the other side when you clamp it to it self.(part I described first, red black)

It's the same thing as in the video, the screw driver is the "U". The jumper cables are doing the same thing.

You could also just use a wire instead of jumper cables... Lol.

Ohhhh, okay. So the two wires are connected to each other, making one long wire. One end goes from the battery, and one end goes to the starter. The connection between the two wires serves as a "switch." So, when the wires are touching, closing the switch, the starter should engage like if you turn the key to the start position, right? Then would I need someone pushing the clutch in, so the car doesn't lurch forward like it would normally starting the car? Okay, and the signal wire is the one with a connector thing, right? Or is it the one with the ring terminal that is tightened down via a bolt? And do I need remove the existing wire when I do this, or keep it there? I'm probably making this a lot more complicated than it is, haha. I don't want to go out there right now since it's dark, but I won't have any daylight tomorrow to work on it. I don't know....

Yeah, I fear I won't get to do much on the car until Tuesday. But after watching EricTheCarGuy's video (), I'm gonna take out the spark plugs and try moving the crankshaft again, next time I get the opportunity. Hopefully I can find a 17mm socket to try with. And that's another thing; as djellum said, I shouldn't try starting it until I can get the engine moving by hand. I doubt it will, but I don't wanna do any more damage if the engine is toast.

[jj421]

Well guys, thanks for all your help! I managed to get my car to start. As was stated earlier, it was indeed a problem with the connection. All I had to do was hit the positive terminal on the battery a few times, knock some battery acid off of it, and it started like normal. Ya know, the old fashioned way? Hit it until it works! There surely is no greater sound then that of your engine firing up when it's been a sitting duck for a few days. And I guess I made this way more complicated than it needed to be. Can't overlook the simple things. In the words of someone on a Pontiac GTO forum, when you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras.

So I guess I'm gonna carry a hammer in my car until I can get a new positive terminal, in case I need to hit it again. Thanks again for all your help though! As always, I learned new things with this issue. Kinda surprising how my car does this over a little amount of battery acid, while my mom's car has so much battery acid, it looks like Mt. Rainier, hahaha. And her car has no problems. I don't know, but I'm glad I know what the issue was, and I'm even more glad my engine is not toast. It's got 258,000 miles, and I plan to pass 300K! This was a minor hiccup, but it's still running and it should still be able to go the remaining 42,000.

[djellum]

take the clamp off the battery and dribble a little coke (the soda) on the terminal and clamp. It will get rid of that fuzzy acid. wash it well after and don't get it all over the place. then hook it back up and smear a small amount of grease on the clamp and connection and it wont fuzz up like that again.

that battery crust is bad stuff, it means your battery is leaking acid vapor. technically you should replace it, though most of us will keep using it till it finally dies.

Optima's are really nice, they don't have acid in them so they won't do things like that. if you treat them good and don't run them dead leaving the lights on they last an incredible amount of time.

[Prwa101]

Haha good to hear it I was hoping you'd mess around with the jumper wnought change the status of the battery haha.

Good advice for thebattry, (CLEAN IT 100%) use of fine sand paper and do the cable and the post. And don't plow the accid... I've seen to many guy blow it and get it in there eye... No good... Just use a little brush.


-Prwa AAE