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freewheeling rear drum for welded rear diff


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24 replies to this topic

#1 ferp420

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:50 PM

so i have a brake drum with splines striped out of it and couldent get 4wd it took a wile to figure it out but it gave me a great idea about useing it on a welded diff set up i know of atleast 6000 miles over 3 years with it on the car it did make a funny squeak noise but it never failed i packed grease in it a few times and got the squeak to go away before i realized it wasent right the only wear was on the back of the cone washer and the flat washer and the nut my question is would a drum off of a fwd car work in place of a 4wd drum or maybe use some kind of wheel bearing in place of the cone washer and pack it full of grease to keep it from squeaking or wearing the parts it would be way easyer than changing a axle just one bolt and a jack and keep the drum bolted to the spare tire im gona try a few things as soon as i can get another drum so i can keep my parts cars rollable

Edited by ferp420, 21 October 2012 - 05:55 PM.


#2 ferp420

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:53 PM

http://www.ultimates...96&d=1348432891
the ruff edges on the inside are from old grease i scraped out with a screwdriver

#3 maozebong

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:45 PM

pulling a rear axle is easy though... i can get mine off without removing the wheel.

#4 Scott in Bellingham

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 11:57 PM

I got a drum Ill sell ya

#5 el_freddo

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 12:51 AM

pulling a rear axle is easy though... i can get mine off without removing the wheel.


Me too when I used to run the welded rear end. Much easier than swapping the drum every time!

Cheers

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#6 Gloyale

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 12:45 PM

you don't want your axle stub being used as the bearing, know what I mean?

That part isn't supposed to spin in there.......if it does for too long, it'll trash the spindle to the point that a good hub won't fit on or engage.

#7 ferp420

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:50 AM

ive already driven on it like that for 2 years every day it hasent worn anything but the cone washer and spring washer there wouldent be alot of sliping because the back wheels are turning the same rate most of the time there would be very little slipping on the axle and any type of lube or bearing would take most of the wear out of the setup i figured just use a wheel bearing in place of the cone washer would eliminate the wear i did see and i figured not having to crawl under a wet muddy car to insert or remove a axle and you still have to remove the axle nut why not just jack up the car and slide another wheel and drum already bolted together it would take longer to get the tools and jack than it would be to swap the wheel and drum as one unit about 30 sec after the car is in the air and the cotter pin out or instead of using a jack just park the back wheel over a ditch or have a strong buddy lift the corner up i dont mind getting dirty its just getting mud and grease out of my dreadlocks is a p.i.t.a. especialy at camp some times it cant be helped but if it can im gona stay out from under the car im heading out to pick a part soon i hope to find another drum and atleast test it out it cant hurt if 2 years of daily driving dident where the axle down with nothing but grease in there than adding a bearing in there should take some of the stress out of it whats the worst that can happen ill need a new axle maybe a bearing at the worst i guess the wheel could fall off but i dought it

#8 monstaru

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:48 PM

This type of mod has been mulled over a million times.It will not work with consistent success.
The only way to go down this road successfully is to utilize another hub and lockout entirely.Scott did one once.I imagine he stopped because it was not reliable.Or maybe that was just his welds.:-p:popcorn:
Regardless, the hub was not designed to be used in this manner.You may think that it wil work from your own experience.But , it won't.Using an axle inside the spindle like that without bearings will give absolutely no consistent results.There are wear spots.period.
You are not treading on new ground here.others, including myself have done tons of research and R&D.IT WILL NOT WORK the way you have it layed out.
cheers

#9 Gloyale

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:21 PM

With the hub loose enough to spin, it means the cone washer isn't locked down.

It has worked OK until now because you have an open diff in there. The only time it really tried to slip was in 4wd. Now, if you put a welded in, and the hub will want to spin on the stub much more....pretty much constantly with every little turn in the road. You will find out quick how it will wear.

This means the wheel bearing won't have a proper preload on the inner races. And the cone washer isn't clamped to the stub. Both these things mean eventually the wheel bearing will get trashed, and likely the splines on the stub axle will wear out.

Also consider that large nut and cone washer are the only thing holding your rear wheel onto the car....especially with drum brakes (discs, the caliper kinda holds the disc from slipping off, kinda)

Do you really want to risk your safety and the safety of others on he road around you?

If you don't want to get a little muddy.....You shouldn't be going to places you need a welded diff to get through;)

#10 maozebong

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 02:20 PM

^^^ that.... because tires will make a world of difference with traction. if you are still stock height and stock wheels, use a razorblade to open up the tread a bit (cut blocks out of the tread).

with a 2 inch lift, you should be able to get the axle off by just getting the tire off the ground.

#11 Tosh

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 09:31 PM

Also consider that large nut and cone washer are the only thing holding your rear wheel onto the car....especially with drum brakes (discs, the caliper kinda holds the disc from slipping off, kinda)



yeah until this happens.

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#12 ferp420

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:22 AM

haha u guys are great im gona sit back and let u guys design this for me with every you cant do that puts me that much closer to doing it i know it works but i dont know how long it will last but hell if i can get away with just greasing it once a year and repace a spring washer every know and again then thats good enuff for me and after 2 years of driving it like this with out any bearings or anything and only part that actualy wore out was a spring washer wheel dident fall off splines on the axle dident wear out even the cone washer was ok just alittle scoreing on the outside where it hit the spring washer but i did only put 6000 miles on it since i had it my girl friend put 2000 on it before i got it and i have know idea how long it was like that before she got it the issue seems to be the reliability of the set up and how long it will last i guess the only way to find out is to do it so next time im at pick a part ill grab a drum and check it out

#13 El Presidente

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 02:49 PM

the issue seems to be the reliability of the set up and how long it will last


Wait...Your trying to call a broken part, a re-engineered part. The physics of running a stripped drum on a stub shaft(and considering ok) doesn't lead to anything reliable or safe and is treading deep into the realm of stupidity. If your calling this done, buy some really good insurance and please don't mention the USMB when you take out a family from your wheel falling off.

Seriously, what your doing is not a good idea.

Josh

#14 ferp420

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:05 AM

if it won't work then how do half the cars out there and every trailer out there running a very similar set up work not new by any means wheel bearings are designed to keep the wheels on maybe I need to draw it out on a cocktail napkin then it'll make sense

#15 monstaru

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 09:15 AM

if it won't work then how do half the cars out there and every trailer out there running a very similar set up work not new by any means wheel bearings are designed to keep the wheels on maybe I need to draw it out on a cocktail napkin then it'll make sense


Because they are running machined surfaces with bearings .Not metal on metal.Pretty simple really.
You are missing the point.
cheers

Edited by monstaru, 01 November 2012 - 09:20 AM.


#16 Qman

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:05 AM

if it won't work then how do half the cars out there and every trailer out there running a very similar set up work not new by any means wheel bearings are designed to keep the wheels on maybe I need to draw it out on a cocktail napkin then it'll make sense


Because they are running machined surfaces with bearings .Not metal on metal.Pretty simple really.
You are missing the point.
cheers


Give it up Brian. He isn't gonna get it. Unfortunately we will see him listed in a Darwin award post somewhere on the internet.

Ferp... punctuation is our friend. Do not be afraid of it.

I think you should steer clear of the "cocktail napkins" as you would find this whole matter easier to understand. Two different set ups. A free spinning wheel is not the same as a driven axle. Maybe we should "draw it" out for you!

#17 ferp420

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 07:59 AM

and why can't you put a bearing in there so that's not running metal on metal ??? I think I need a cocktail napkin explanation and if you don't like my punctuation give more money to local schools and save the kids it's too late for me sorry for the painfull reading

Edited by ferp420, 02 November 2012 - 08:02 AM.


#18 spazomatic

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:12 AM

and why can't you put a bearing in there so that's not running metal on metal ??? I think I need a cocktail napkin explanation and if you don't like my punctuation give more money to local schools and save the kids it's too late for me sorry for the painfull reading


Yes, you would need a bearing in there for it to work with any kind of longevity.
Which brings us back to the point of needing to re-engineer the thing.

Running a busted part like this is foolish, at best.

#19 ferp420

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:38 AM

Yes, you would need a bearing in there for it to work with any kind of longevity.
Which brings us back to the point of needing to re-engineer the thing.
I
Running a busted part like this is foolish, at best.


okay now we're getting somewhere

#20 Qman

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:29 AM

and why can't you put a bearing in there so that's not running metal on metal ??? I think I need a cocktail napkin explanation and if you don't like my punctuation give more money to local schools and save the kids it's too late for me sorry for the painfull reading


If you do not have the education to write a proper sentence then maybe, just maybe, you do not have the proper education to redesign the bearing system of a car... Laziness is no excuse for the school system. Not listening to those who know how these things work is plain ignorance!

#21 ferp420

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:55 PM

Duh what

#22 maozebong

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:22 AM

dude, so really, what is so bad about removing an axle for running a welded diff?


instead, you have to change a drum when you want it. seriously, changing a drum instead of tapping out two shear pins. doesnt make sense to me, and also exposing the rear bearings to dirt every time you remove it.


to make this work, your drum will need to have bearings of its own like a trailer drum, aside from the bearings on the stub.



and anyways, just get a lift and bigger tires and ************ing forget about trying this. bigger tires will give you more off road capabilites than a welded rear diff at stock height. learn some off road driving tricks like airing down and ebrake use and you will be fine.

#23 monstaru

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:57 PM

Duh what


The point is, you are not the first one to try an tackle this monster.We all have at some point thought about this,done R&D to make it happen, or flat out meltedd some ************ together to make it happen.
It's an old hat, that you are trying to wear backwards.Still the same hat.

#24 spazomatic

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:55 AM

I love the idea though. Having a hub that floats independant of the axle would be sweet. Perhaps a hub and spindle from say, a Dana 30 could be retrofitted onto the rear, and then a locking hub or drive flange could be used in conjunction with a welded diff.

Until somebody figures this out.... Im going to follow the easier route of converting the rear to disks with Pbrakes, and install a 2nd brake lever. One for the right, one for the left...apply as necessary.
Or engineer a cutting brake for each corner:brow:

#25 Gloyale

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:49 AM

haha u guys are great im gona sit back and let u guys design this for me with every you cant do that puts me that much closer to doing it i know it works but i dont know how long it will last but hell if i can get away with just greasing it once a year and repace a spring washer every know and again then thats good enuff for me and after 2 years of driving it like this with out any bearings or anything and only part that actualy wore out was a spring washer wheel dident fall off splines on the axle dident wear out even the cone washer was ok just alittle scoreing on the outside where it hit the spring washer but i did only put 6000 miles on it since i had it my girl friend put 2000 on it before i got it and i have know idea how long it was like that before she got it the issue seems to be the reliability of the set up and how long it will last i guess the only way to find out is to do it so next time im at pick a part ill grab a drum and check it out


Again, there has been an open diff in there the whole time. The drum wasn't TRYING to turn at a different rate than the axle inside it.

Put a welded in, and the hub will be CONSTANTLY trying to spin at a different rate than the axle. (unless you only drive straight)

With this setup, you are basically relying totally on the axle nut to hold the wheel on. Except that the axle nut is supposed to clamp the cone washer down to hold tight. Without that happening, you are really relying on just the cotter pin to keep the axle nut from spinning off.

You really want to put your life and every driver around you in jeopardy trusting in a $.50 piece of tin to keep you safe???




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