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Complete Cone Washer Failure


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#1 jj421

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 06:10 PM

Alright guys, since I have some time before the dealership can actually get cone washers in stock, I figured I'd hit the forums and see your guys' opinions.

I've known for months that my cone washers on the front wheels of my Loyale were shot. I just never actually planned to do anything about it because the nearest Subaru dealership is a half hour drive away, and I'm lazy. :-p Anyways, last Saturday, I heard some popping noises when I let out the clutch. I pulled into a parking lot figuring my axle was coming off the transmission or something, but found nothing. As I was pulling out of the parking lot, I would let out the clutch, hear a grinding noise, and the car would barely move, it at all. After trying reverse and first gear a few times, I gave up and figured my clutch was toast. Pushed the car into a parking stall and got a ride to work.

As I went to bed that night, I doubted that it was the clutch. I could put it into gear perfectly fine, and have had no sign of a slipping clutch or anything. This just randomly happened. Plus, I've never experienced a clutch failure, but I doubt it'd make that ungodly grinding. The only argument towards my clutch going out is the fact that I can no longer adjust my clutch because it's adjusted all the way (if that makes sense). So if I burn my clutch any more, I'll need a new one. So yeah, I was thinking that night that I should see about my cone washer. If there is anything I learned from my last issue, it is to stick with the simple things first.

I drove out to my car in the morning to see. Took off the hubcap and the axle nut (which didn't surprise me that it was loose). What did surprise me, though, is how loose the cone washer was. It just kinda, fell out. A quick inspection revealed the gap in the cone washer was wide enough you could fit a dime in it, maybe even a penny. So, obviously, the axle and wheel are not making a connection. Got it towed home, and of course, it was Sunday, so the Subaru parts department is not open on Sundays.

The next day, now Monday, I called around to local dealerships. There was one dealership that had ONE cone washer in stock, but that was down in Auburn, which is a 1.5 hour drive. I am, however, looking for two cone and two spring washers for both front wheels, so I'd still have to place an order. The only dealership with two cone washers in stock was up in Bellingham, a 2-3 hour drive. I figured it's certainly not worth the gas money (especially with a 14 MPG Ford Mustang GT) to drive out there to get the parts. It'd be more worth the wait. I went ahead and placed an order at the dealership nearest to my house and they told me it would get there on Wednesday, and that they'd call me.

Wednesday, I get no call.

Thursday (today), I go to the dealership and ask what's up. They said they placed the order, but Subaru never actually shipped it out. I had them call around and still no other dealerships had the parts in stock. They were unable to do expedited (overnight) shipping, so I now have to wait until next Monday for the parts. This is why I hate, and try to avoid dealerships! Good new is, however, the guy at the dealership gave me 25% off. :) So now the parts will cost ~$35 before tax, versus the original ~$47 before tax (high prices is another reason I hate and avoid dealerships).

So yeah, sorry for the long "story," and here is the main point (I'd say) of this post. Is there a chance I have stripped the hub/axle? When I was trying to move the car, the axle was just spinning. It doesn't look like I've done any damage, but can you guys tell?

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Oh, and here is a photo of my previous cone and spring washer. You can see the gap in the cone washer and the spring washer looks like it's been flattened out.

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Yeah, again, sorry for the long post. Just to finish this post off, I will post some pictures of what I saw at the dealership today. This is a perfect condition, inside and out, second generation Brat. :)

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#2 TOONGA

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 06:23 PM

The only way you will know for sure is to take the hub off the disc and inspect it. You should be able to do this without taking the shaft out of the knuckle. from the look of the damage on the shaft where the cone washerand flat washer were spinning, I would believe you have worn your "teeth" away in your hub. The thread on the shaft of the CV is damaged as well. you may get away with using it again or as I'm thinking you may need a new outer CV.

TOONGA

#3 jj421

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 06:34 PM

The only way you will know for sure is to take the hub off the disc and inspect it. You should be able to do this without taking the shaft out of the knuckle. from the look of the damage on the shaft where the cone washerand flat washer were spinning, I would believe you have worn your "teeth" away in your hub. The thread on the shaft of the CV is damaged as well. you may get away with using it again or as I'm thinking you may need a new outer CV.

TOONGA


Thanks for your input. I think what I might do is if I get bored this weekend, go to the Pick-N-Pull and grab me a hub and axle or something. It's kinda hard for me to inspect it because the tow truck driver dropped my car on a somewhat steep hill, with soft gravel and not much room to maneuver. So jacking up the car probably wouldn't be the safest thing in the world. I was planning on putting the new cone washer on and just see if it works. If it doesn't then I guess I'm gonna get some things from the junkyard.

#4 TOONGA

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 06:43 PM

Is your vehicle a part time 4WD or front wheel drive?

With the "suspected hub failure" you will be able to drive your PT 4WD vehicle in RWD as the front hub won't engage. which will enable you to move the vehicle a short distance to a safer working area.

A mate of mine here in Australia drove his brumby in rear wheel drive for around 2 months, until I cornered him one day and fixed his hub and the bearings the free play had destroyed.

TOONGA

ps I wish my brumby was in as good a condition as that brat

Edited by TOONGA, 25 October 2012 - 06:44 PM.
added a ps


#5 TomRhere

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:31 PM

The axle should be fine.

The hub however, is toast.

With that much wear on the cone washer, the matching area of the hub is worn also.
Plus, the hub splines that mate to the axle are most likely worn away. Reason you can't move it when you let the clutch out.

#6 jj421

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:14 PM

My car is part time 4WD, so yeah, I could put it in 4WD and move it. I'll probably do that when I go to fix it.

I guess I will head to the Pick-N-Pull and grab a good looking hub. Last time I check O'Reilly's website, you couldn't order a hub, so I'm thinking, is that a dealer only part too? If so, I definitely would only buy it new if there's a reason you shouldn't get a used hub.

I was hoping I wouldn't need a new hub, but I guess it's not too bad. I gotta get some other things from the Pick-N-Pull anyways. This just makes it worth the drive out there. Hopefully I won't need an axle too (or at least the outer part, but isn't just easier to replace the whole thing?).

#7 TOONGA

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:18 PM

yeah the hubs are dealer parts only and as I understand it shipped from Japan, so expect to pay a fortune. as for the cone washers you should be able to get one when you pull the shaft and hub.

TOONGA

#8 Crazyeights

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:20 PM

I'll mail you a used cone washer or 2 if you can't find any. I don't have any extra hubs though.

#9 jj421

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:50 PM

I definitely don't want to buy a hub from the dealer then....

As far as cone washers go, I'm just gonna get them from the dealer. Brand new. Ya know, if Subaru screws up again and I don't get them on Monday, I will demand to get them for free, since I will have then been waiting over a week for what was originally told to me to take two days.

I'd go looking for cone washers at the Pick-N-Pull, but last time I was there, everybody already took all of 'em. And the cars that had cone washers still on them, I couldn't get the axle nut off because the wheel would turn when I try to loosen it (even with the parking brake engaged). Plus, I don't wanna accidentally grab a bad cone washer, even though it looked okay.

The cone and spring washers gonna get new; the hub I will get used. I don't wanna pay an outrageous price from the dealership for a hub if there are perfectly good ones sitting in the junkyard for a fraction of the price.

#10 AKghandi

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:59 PM

i had a 92 loyal that did that exact thing. because there was no flat washer the cone washer became worn and loose
if you keep driving on it the hub will completely wear away in a cone shape and the wheel will sit leaned inward. eventually the rotor will wear through the caliper bracket, pads, then the caliper it self.
the people i got the car from drove 3 months that way in 4x4.. so you should be OK for a little while longer

you may want to clean the wheel bearings and repack them. metal shavings are bad :-p

the axle should be OK. the axles are a much harder metal, but you should clean the splines out.

after i put the new hub, cone washer; and flat washer on it was golden.
my$.02

#11 jj421

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:40 PM

i had a 92 loyal that did that exact thing. because there was no flat washer the cone washer became worn and loose
if you keep driving on it the hub will completely wear away in a cone shape and the wheel will sit leaned inward. eventually the rotor will wear through the caliper bracket, pads, then the caliper it self.
the people i got the car from drove 3 months that way in 4x4.. so you should be OK for a little while longer

you may want to clean the wheel bearings and repack them. metal shavings are bad :-p

the axle should be OK. the axles are a much harder metal, but you should clean the splines out.

after i put the new hub, cone washer; and flat washer on it was golden.
my$.02


Yeah, I'm definitely not gonna drive with it in 4WD. In fact, the car hasn't even been started since Saturday. I should go out and start her up to see if the engine still works. :-p I miss the "purr" of that EA82, hahaha.

Well, in theroy, I should replace my bearings. I have a brand new set of wheel bearings sitting in my garage. I was gonna do them when I replaced my passenger side axle a few months ago, but the axle was a huge hassle for me and I didn't feel like doing the bearings at that time. Plus, I don't really have the right tools or knowledge to do my bearings. I'll do them if I ever get someone to help me, but yeah, haha.

Okay, looks like I don't need to worry about the axle, which is good. I don't have the time, money, or energy to replace that (although it'd be A LOT easier replacing an axle for a second time, since I'd know what in the world I'd be doing).

I just gotta hope the Pick-N-Pull has a good hub. Looks like the nearest one to me has one Loyale and one GL-10, and that's it. Passenger and driver side hubs are the same, correct? I don't see why they'd be different. Just asking in case both those cars only have passenger side hubs left on 'em.

#12 AKghandi

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:02 AM

front left and right are the same with rear drums, but with 4 wheel disc, like the gl-10 all 4 hubs are the same. so you should be golden.

#13 Gloyale

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:55 AM

You can reuse old cone washers if you grind off the lip around the edge, and grind the outer face flat.

You are definately gonna need a new hub if the axle has spun inside it.

#14 jj421

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 01:23 PM

front left and right are the same with rear drums, but with 4 wheel disc, like the gl-10 all 4 hubs are the same. so you should be golden.


Okay, sweet. That's what I thought. :)

You can reuse old cone washers if you grind off the lip around the edge, and grind the outer face flat.

You are definately gonna need a new hub if the axle has spun inside it.


I've read here on the forums somewhere that no matter how much grinding or repair to the cone washer, there is no way to repair it. In fact, here is the quote from GeneralDisorder:

!No amount of filing/grinding/reworking/etc will fix a worn cone washer!


Oh, plus I don't have a grinder, so that would be useless. :-p

#15 old sub freak

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:33 PM

The cone washer needs to be the right thickness so all the filing won't help.Altho I have done that in a jam.i filed off the ridge and smothed the face of it and it worked...for a while.Usually when the axel nut get loose you are lookin at new wheel bearings and cone washer and washer.You can streach some miles out of them with re-tourqing and doing this and that but in the end...Bearings need to be replaced.I would just go to pull a part and take the "whole sha bang"...the Hub and the wheelbearing assenbly, cone washer and flat washer.It may take some lookin but that would be a good quick fix.I have lost faith in the dealers.They don't seem to care abouty "the old stuff" I mean should'nt they have conewashers in stock? I mean really.They sure don't take up shelf space...If i do have to go to the dealer.I always buy a couple of carter? pins for the axel.They are like 35 cents or something.There good to have around.Anyway "Oh it looks like I will have to ORDER them !!!!and it will take a few days....What!! Management !!They should be well stocked with this stuff as i bet they reapair a lot of axels,ect. So hang in there ,you'll have her rollin soon enough,C ya,todd:banana:

Edited by old sub freak, 26 October 2012 - 03:35 PM.
old age..


#16 Subruise

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 04:52 PM

youre not gonna hurt it by driving in 4wd unless you get a drifty with it. ive got a bum axle on my loyale and havent had time or parts in almost a month. i drive 3-500 miles a week

#17 kabarakh

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:34 PM

youre not gonna hurt it by driving in 4wd unless you get a drifty with it. ive got a bum axle on my loyale and havent had time or parts in almost a month. i drive 3-500 miles a week


I concur. I know a guy that snapped his front cv and drove it in 4wd as a 'rear wheel drive' vehicle for just under a year, commuting almost 150 miles a day before he sold it... Guy who bought it replaced the cv and never had any issues.

#18 AKghandi

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:00 PM

with a bad c/v its not a problem to run 4x4, but this is a stripped hub. if he drives on it too much the hub will wear away, eventually the rotor will eat the caliper bracket, pads and caliper..:dead:

it just recently stripped to the point of not driving so he can probably get away with a new hub, cone washer, flat washer, and maybe some new brake pads.

Edited by AKghandi, 26 October 2012 - 11:05 PM.


#19 el_freddo

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:48 PM

with 4 wheel disc, like the gl-10 all 4 hubs are the same.


Sorry but this is incorrect and misleading! Rear disc hubs are DIFFERENT to front hubs. The ONLY difference is the shaft size, the rears are smaller than the front, thus the rear hub will not fit the front.

If you need a front hub, get a front hub; if you need a rear hub, get a rear hub.

Simple.

You can reuse old cone washers if you grind off the lip around the edge, and grind the outer face flat.

You are definately gonna need a new hub if the axle has spun inside it.


Totally agree with both statements.

Cheers

Bennie

#20 AKghandi

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 12:15 AM

Sorry but this is incorrect and misleading! Rear disc hubs are DIFFERENT to front hubs. The ONLY difference is the shaft size, the rears are smaller than the front, thus the rear hub will not fit the front.


I stand corrected. I could have sworn they were the same. opps:-\

#21 el_freddo

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 01:06 AM

I stand corrected. I could have sworn they were the same. opps:-\


Don't worry, I was of the same opinion until I tried to fit the front hub to the rear end for rear discs. I was shattered.

If this was to work, I'd have rear discs on all my EA subarus that are "in my life".

Cheers

Bennie

Edited by el_freddo, 27 October 2012 - 01:10 AM.


#22 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 12:12 PM

Being a mechanical shaft locking device - removal of material from the cone washer or hub mating surfaces will compromise the proper function of the lock. No amount of wear is acceptable and thus you cannot resurface a worn cone washer by filing the lip down. This will cause the cone washer to not fit the hub properly and not clamp the axle shaft as designed. For the price of new one's it's a very poor idea to attempt this.

GD

#23 Gloyale

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 12:22 PM

Being a mechanical shaft locking device - removal of material from the cone washer or hub mating surfaces will compromise the proper function of the lock. No amount of wear is acceptable and thus you cannot resurface a worn cone washer by filing the lip down. This will cause the cone washer to not fit the hub properly and not clamp the axle shaft as designed. For the price of new one's it's a very poor idea to attempt this.

GD


I totally disagree about the cone washer. Very careful few moments with a file will make it 100% functional.

It's about the angle and the wedge factor.

You can carefully remove the lip from the cone washer, without removing the original face material below that line. This allows the cone washer to seat all the way down into the hub, without catching. Again the trick is not removing face material from the small end of the cone washer, so the part that is seating into the hub is still a perfect cone.

Proof is that I've never, ever bought a new cone washer. 15+ years of Subaru. Literally 100's of axle nuts removed and reinstalled. Occasionally, one will be so bad I'll chuck it, and grab another used one, clean it up, and good to go.

We here in the Norhtwest take it for granted that ever town has a dealership, and they still can get parts for 20+ year old cars....the cars are still around here.
Go to the Midwest, South, or East Coast, and there a not dealerships all over. Some states don't have any. Buying a new part for a car that old, just isn't an option in every part of the country. Reusing whats there is just what you do. And it works fine.

I never mess with the Hub. If the Hub is damaged, it gets tossed (or becomes a wheel redrill template;)

Edited by Gloyale, 27 October 2012 - 12:26 PM.


#24 jj421

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 01:12 PM

I agree with GeneralDisorder. A cone washer from the dealership doesn't cost that much; only $16 or so from the dealership nearest to me. I mean, that's a lot for such a small part, I'd say. But considering how if it fails like it did on my car, it could render your car immobile (especially if you don't have 4WD). So the price is definitely worth it. And I think that any work you do to the cone washer is only temporary, much like retorquing the axle nut every week.

Now, in that sense, messing with my current cone washer is not an option, because I don't have a grinder, files, or anything, haha.

What I think would've been a better option, and definitely an option for those people in the Midwest, is order the parts from www.subaruparts.com. Just enter the part number (dealership told me the cone washer was #623024020 and the spring washer was #623204080) and you can order them online. The parts are cheaper, but you gotta pay shipping, and it'll probably take two weeks to get 'em.

Even if it's okay to drive with it in 4WD, I'm not gonna do it. I don't have to drive it anywhere. It's not like it's the only car in the family. If it was my sole mode of transportation, then sure. But I've got another car to drive to/from work.

I really don't understand why dealerships don't have at least one cone washer in stock. I can understand if not many people come in asking for two, but at least keep one in stock! I don't know.... Hopefully the parts will come in on Monday, and hopefully I'll be able to get a hub or two (might as well replace both hubs) from the Pick-N-Pull tomorrow.

#25 Gloyale

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 01:44 PM

So the price is definitely worth it. And I think that any work you do to the cone washer is only temporary, much like retorquing the axle nut every week.



Nah....

Once properly seated, it won't need messed with again until you need to take it off.

I'm telling you......at $16 bucks a pop, I've saved over $1000 bucks over the years, all with the help of a simple $5 file.

You guys are overthinking this one. But it's your time and money, so do what you like.




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