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Panning for metals... In the oil


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51 replies to this topic

#26 Quidam

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:41 PM

...is the relief spring in the pump a candidate for stretching also?... just curious about the shim for one but not the others or stretching vs shimming


I don't know for sure, haven't been in there yet. But I've read several times of people adding a shim to the pump...probably easier and you have more control like that with thickness.

I don't want to go nuts with a lot of oil pressure...and 80 psi for the 8,000 rpm I want to turn in another project may be a little too much for a Subaru, as they seem to take it well. But how much load is on the motor plays a big part in what oil pressure you need.

What's clear is not one weight is right for all. All aluminum expands more than cast iron when hot, plus, the clearance differences from one to the next can be a big difference. For example, main bearing clearance could range from .0008 to .003, and still be in spec.

The most oil pressure I've ever known about in a piston engine is 200 psi with 70 weight oil. But that's in an NHRA Top Fuel Dragster making 1000 hp per cylinder...

Doug

#27 92LoyaleH4

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:55 PM

Well it"s been awhile since i"ve heard about oils. All this new stuff all runs on 5-30 stuff,o8 ranger 4.0 had 5-30 in it since new,I got it and put 10-40 in it [it had ticks when started cold. Put 10-40 in it and nothing since. Commute trk. now [moving so 650.mi.round trip every 2 days:banghead: talk tired... Anyway my old subs ea81 I run 20-50 sum. and when real cold -10/+30 still run 10-40. I have 81 ea81 w/377,000mi. Weber, gets Flogged, hauls dirt bikes and still holds 55-60@2-5000rpm and hot idle 900@30 with walmart oil changing 25-3000mi. Looks like I just changed it:D Did I mention flog?


Actaully alot of new stuff runs on 0w20 now:eek:

I can't see running a 20 wt...Even tho the tolerences are tighter on newer engines...but in all honestly how tight can they really get...Granted all the books usaully say you can run 5w30 or whatever so i think its mainly for MPG and the Gov't guidelines.

#28 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:04 AM

Actaully alot of new stuff runs on 0w20 now:eek:

I can't see running a 20 wt...Even tho the tolerences are tighter on newer engines...but in all honestly how tight can they really get...Granted all the books usaully say you can run 5w30 or whatever so i think its mainly for MPG and the Gov't guidelines.


Many of the fords/mazdas and even the new FB motors (2.0 subaru) run a 5w-20. In the newer fords, it's due to the anti-friction coating on the hard surfaces and the OHC setups... They also don't have to pull the heat away as much as the old pushrod V8 setups and the Ford v8s have a 6 or so quart capacity so the oil doesn't become overworked between changes (and even the oil coolers now adays)

Hell, even the newer Hondas run the 0w-20... and that stuff feels like water..

Or the BMW M-V8s run a 10w-60.. talk about thick!

#29 zukiru

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:33 AM

Many of the fords/mazdas and even the new FB motors (2.0 subaru) run a 5w-20. In the newer fords, it's due to the anti-friction coating on the hard surfaces and the OHC setups... They also don't have to pull the heat away as much as the old pushrod V8 setups and the Ford v8s have a 6 or so quart capacity so the oil doesn't become overworked between changes (and even the oil coolers now adays)

Hell, even the newer Hondas run the 0w-20... and that stuff feels like water..

Or the BMW M-V8s run a 10w-60.. talk about thick!


Sounds like you are in a similar line of work as i am.
Some of the Ford v8s run 7 quarts of 5w20.
The Mazda dealer locally puts 5w20 in their vehicles that "require" 0w20
Like you, I find it hard to imagine that watery stuff making much oil pressure.
But I belive it takes less energy to pump it.
Plus I get more commision every time a sell a blend or a full synthetic so works out for me.
At the same time, I'm very honest with my customers so I at the very least let mazda folks. Know that the dealers are putting conventional oil int there vehicles.

#30 zukiru

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:37 AM

Honda dealer uses Mobil 1 so i let them know that too.
Think I read that the BR-Z uses 0w20... And only wants the oil changed at 7500 miles

Edited by zukiru, 26 November 2012 - 01:41 AM.


#31 88wacaroo

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:30 PM

Honda dealer uses Mobil 1 so i let them know that too.
Think I read that the BR-Z uses 0w20... And only wants the oil changed at 7500 miles


About the oil weight I"ve come to the fact that 1-with govt. wanting more mpg car manu./govt. came up with 0-20 0-30 10-30 so forth so motors dont work so hard at pumping it =mpg On the other side of the coin I think with the way they cram everything under the hood and all the heat generated it kills the oil and the motor quicker-I remember back in the 80"s car manu. said they were building 5year cars because they were losing $$$$ from cars lasting to long! The Govt.nowadays just cares about $$$$$!! I love my ea81"s:headbang: Long live!!

#32 92LoyaleH4

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:42 PM

About the oil weight I"ve come to the fact that 1-with govt. wanting more mpg car manu./govt. came up with 0-20 0-30 10-30 so forth so motors dont work so hard at pumping it =mpg On the other side of the coin I think with the way they cram everything under the hood and all the heat generated it kills the oil and the motor quicker-I remember back in the 80"s car manu. said they were building 5year cars because they were losing $$$$ from cars lasting to long! The Govt.nowadays just cares about $$$$$!! I love my ea81"s:headbang: Long live!!


I agree it is the gov't not coming up with this 0 weight crap...but basically forcing car makers to use it...

To the 5yr car comment...Buying a Subaru fixes that problem:-p

#33 Idasho

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:43 PM

Like you, I find it hard to imagine that watery stuff making much oil pressure.


Much like the industry being focused on horsepower (instead of torque), the industry is stuck on oil pressure (instead of flow)

Oil pressure doesnt lube a motor. Oil flow does. Without oil flow, the oil would not be allowed to draw heat and particles away from bearing surfaces. All oil pressure is resistance to flow.

#34 92LoyaleH4

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:04 PM

Much like the industry being focused on horsepower (instead of torque), the industry is stuck on oil pressure (instead of flow)

Oil pressure doesnt lube a motor. Oil flow does. Without oil flow, the oil would not be allowed to draw heat and particles away from bearing surfaces. All oil pressure is resistance to flow.


Very true!

#35 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:28 PM

The Mazda dealer is using conventional?? Is ford still saying 5w-20 syn-blend? I believe they suggest that so you still have usable oil at 5K miles..

and the manufacturers using 0w-20 is also due to the fact that they can control the materials and techniques used in building these motors. In the 80s (cause this motor first appeared in 1985? How long was it in R&D before it was mass produced? 5 years?) look at the casting technology and materials. They were BARELY starting to use aluminum as a main material. They were having trouble with magnesium wheels back then too..

Also look at the 09 and up Nissan VQ (3.5 V6) motors. They have a Diamond Like Coating on the pistons to reduce wear and handle the high heat. They require a very special and very expensive ester-based oil. If not used, the coating flakes, the pistons burn up and start overheating and eating oil like no tomorrow. Does anyone hear about that? nope. Even the local Nissan dealer was doing the "oil changes for life" with the house conventional. Imagine the warranty claims they'll see in a few years...

And don't get me started on BMW's stupid "Nikasil" in the 90s.. :drunk:

The alloys and coating substances have come along way since then..

#36 ivans imports

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:43 AM

thrust berring check crankshaft end play should be almost 0 movement push on clutch fork and front pully back and forth see if moves

#37 88wacaroo

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:41 PM

I agree it is the gov't not coming up with this 0 weight crap...but basically forcing car makers to use it...

To the 5yr car comment...Buying a Subaru fixes that problem:-p


My buddie bought his 98 OB new with the $6.00 oil changes for life!!:drunk::D:D They hate that car...They nitpick it every 3000mi.[oil changes] and find something wrong with it-not very often I fix it..and ask him if he"s ready to trade it in 4 a new one he smiles and says no:D The oil filter costs more than his oil change does:banana: So the dealer is :horse::banghead: wishing this car would get wrecked-blowup!! 193k an still going strong:banana::drunk: The dealer can :banghead::horse:

#38 92LoyaleH4

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:57 PM

My buddie bought his 98 OB new with the $6.00 oil changes for life!!:drunk::D:D They hate that car...They nitpick it every 3000mi.[oil changes] and find something wrong with it-not very often I fix it..and ask him if he"s ready to trade it in 4 a new one he smiles and says no:D The oil filter costs more than his oil change does:banana: So the dealer is :horse::banghead: wishing this car would get wrecked-blowup!! 193k an still going strong:banana::drunk: The dealer can :banghead::horse:


Lol i enjoyed reading this...I feel like a subie spokesperson sometimes:o...Delightfully mentioning how my 92 Loyale is still running amazingly and everything works and how subies (and most other asian cars) are more reliable than most any american car:D

I tried getting my mother to buy one...but she claimed they were too much...so she bought a kia soul with a dent in the door from a dealer:banghead:

#39 88wacaroo

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:23 PM

Lol i enjoyed reading this...I feel like a subie spokesperson sometimes:o...Delightfully mentioning how my 92 Loyale is still running amazingly and everything works and how subies (and most other asian cars) are more reliable than most any american car:D

I tried getting my mother to buy one...but she claimed they were too much...so she bought a kia soul with a dent in the door from a dealer:banghead:

A KIA!!! :eek: A friend has 1...I"m constantly fixing stupid crap on it she likes the mpgs I"m like:-\ it only gets 26-8 an it doesn"t even look good:banghead:
Oh well she pays! It"s only a matter of time till I can"t get parts at the JY:dead: Dealer parts are $$$$! Thank You for the comment on my comments :D I try to make stuff :lol::headbang::cool: Thanks!!

#40 92LoyaleH4

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:44 PM

A KIA!!! :eek: A friend has 1...I"m constantly fixing stupid crap on it she likes the mpgs I"m like:-\ it only gets 26-8 an it doesn"t even look good:banghead:
Oh well she pays! It"s only a matter of time till I can"t get parts at the JY:dead: Dealer parts are $$$$! Thank You for the comment on my comments :D I try to make stuff :lol::headbang::cool: Thanks!!


Hehe:clap: As much as i hate to say it, its gonna be funny when crap starts going wrong...i don't touch the cars since my stepdad who doesn't work on anything has a problem with me working on his stuff and of course my moms. I can work on anything i ain't scared:drunk:...BUT if she had gotten a subie i told her i could do basically anything on the thing in short time and cheap somewhat...Granted the KIA only has 26k miles...it'll be trouble free for sometime.:burnout:

#41 88wacaroo

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:27 AM

Hehe:clap: As much as i hate to say it, its gonna be funny when crap starts going wrong...i don't touch the cars since my stepdad who doesn't work on anything has a problem with me working on his stuff and of course my moms. I can work on anything i ain't scared:drunk:...BUT if she had gotten a subie i told her i could do basically anything on the thing in short time and cheap somewhat...Granted the KIA only has 26k miles...it'll be trouble free for sometime.:burnout:

Yeah lets see here:confused: I"ll go with 40k.... Well.... I Know What I"m a gonna DO...Sit back and :drunk::popcorn::headbang: Watch the movie unfold:banana::D

#42 zukiru

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:21 AM

Yeah never heard that abut the Nissan VQs.
Sounds like i need to do some research.
none of our shop books nor the computer program have anything about that in it...

at least Hondas doing their free oil changes with the proper mobile 1 oil.
even the customers with free oil changes from Honda don't want to wait 3 hours to get an oil change...

#43 88wacaroo

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:29 PM

Yeah never heard that abut the Nissan VQs.
Sounds like i need to do some research.
none of our shop books nor the computer program have anything about that in it...

at least Hondas doing their free oil changes with the proper mobile 1 oil.
even the customers with free oil changes from Honda don't want to wait 3 hours to get an oil change...

Damn!! Free oil changes?? Somebody"s making$$$ here:brow: I mean Mobile 1 is like $7=8.00 a quart:dead:!!

#44 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:40 PM

I dug up the old research we did on it back in 09, and I must amend and say Nissan does not REQUIRE their oil, but without the GMO package, it beats up pretty bad on the lifters, chain guides and ring and ring lands...

Maxima/Ester oil discussion

#45 88wacaroo

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:09 PM

I dug up the old research we did on it back in 09, and I must amend and say Nissan does not REQUIRE their oil, but without the GMO package, it beats up pretty bad on the lifters, chain guides and ring and ring lands...

Maxima/Ester oil discussion

I don"t know if anybody still does it but I remember TOY oil filters had a pressure valve inside that held oil to the top end so when you started up it wasn"t dry {chain rattle an all that noise}:)

#46 l75eya

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:08 PM

Man, you guys make me feel very nervous about how non-chalantly I've been using oil in my car :o

Think I'll try out different oil in the summer now, but I've been running mobil clean 10/30 in our cars since day one with religious 3k oil changes and mobil 1 filters........

No problems yet and oil pressure always looks good (according to the incredibly super accurate Subaru supplied dash cluster gauge!) but maybe a thicker oil is in order for the warm months.


Nice reading though this thread.:drunk:

#47 zukiru

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:15 PM

the ester additive is 1%???

:-\

bahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!

and they 11+ a quart for a conventional oil with this 1% additive?

marketing wins.

thanks for the article though.
that coating is a very interesting device.

I seriously doubt using regular old oil is going to hurt things very much.

do you own a Maxima? the new ones are pretty good looking for a 4 door nissan.

#48 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 07:13 PM

the ester additive is 1%???

:-\

bahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!

and they 11+ a quart for a conventional oil with this 1% additive?

marketing wins.

thanks for the article though.
that coating is a very interesting device.

I seriously doubt using regular old oil is going to hurt things very much.

do you own a Maxima? the new ones are pretty good looking for a 4 door nissan.


Well, we did, but I BEGGED the mother not to buy a new nissan.. and 3 years later, she about had a heart attack when she saw the residual value. :drunk:

#49 pressingonward

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:04 PM

Man, you guys make me feel very nervous about how non-chalantly I've been using oil in my car :o

Think I'll try out different oil in the summer now, but I've been running mobil clean 10/30 in our cars since day one with religious 3k oil changes and mobil 1 filters........

No problems yet and oil pressure always looks good (according to the incredibly super accurate Subaru supplied dash cluster gauge!) but maybe a thicker oil is in order for the warm months.


Nice reading though this thread.:drunk:


There is a LOT of misinformation in this thread, especially regarding oil pressure and oil weight. Please read through Bobistheoilguy's oil basics section http://www.bobistheo.../motor-oil-101/ and be very careful what you take away from this thread.

In a nutshell here is what the oil basics section explains:

The first number in the viscosity rating should be as low as possible (0w or 5w) as this indicates how thick the oil will be when cold (Your oil will always be thicker than ideal when cold, running say a 20w-XX instead of a 5w-XX only makes it worse). This is especially important for cold climates in the winter. 10w is ok, but lower is better unless you live in the Arizona desert or it's a dedicated race car.

The second number indicates the viscosity when hot. The best value depends on your car and climate. You need 10 psi of oil pressure for every 1000 rpm while driving in your usual manner (20 psi at 2000 rpm, 30 psi at 3000 rpm, etc). Run the weight of oil that gives you this. Anything thicker will reduce fuel mileage and reduce oil flow rate, which is much more important than pressure (assuming you have the minimum pressure required of 10 psi for every 1000 rpm). Start at the factory recommended oil viscosity (although if it's 10w-30, I recommend 0w-30 or 5w-30 due to their superior performance cold as stated above) and see what your pressure is (I recommend an aftermarket gage to verify the factory gage accuracy), then increase or decrease the viscosity to reach your target oil pressure.

Edited by pressingonward, 29 November 2012 - 09:27 PM.


#50 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:39 AM

,

There is a LOT of misinformation in this thread, especially regarding oil pressure and oil weight. Please read through Bobistheoilguy's oil basics section http://www.bobistheo.../motor-oil-101/ and be very careful what you take away from this thread.

In a nutshell here is what the oil basics section explains:

The first number in the viscosity rating should be as low as possible (0w or 5w) as this indicates how thick the oil will be when cold (Your oil will always be thicker than ideal when cold, running say a 20w-XX instead of a 5w-XX only makes it worse). This is especially important for cold climates in the winter. 10w is ok, but lower is better unless you live in the Arizona desert or it's a dedicated race car.

The second number indicates the viscosity when hot. The best value depends on your car and climate. You need 10 psi of oil pressure for every 1000 rpm while driving in your usual manner (20 psi at 2000 rpm, 30 psi at 3000 rpm, etc). Run the weight of oil that gives you this. Anything thicker will reduce fuel mileage and reduce oil flow rate, which is much more important than pressure (assuming you have the minimum pressure required of 10 psi for every 1000 rpm). Start at the factory recommended oil viscosity (although if it's 10w-30, I recommend 0w-30 or 5w-30 due to their superior performance cold as stated above) and see what your pressure is (I recommend an aftermarket gage to verify the factory gage accuracy), then increase or decrease the viscosity to reach your target oil pressure.


While what you say is true, there is such a thing as too much oil pressure. Its like putting your thumb over a garden hose. And also having the oil too thin or too thick at temperatures can cause excessive wear... and for this motor in general, why does subaru recommend against a 5w30 for continous highway (high RPM) operation when it should protect it? Maybe the oil, at temp, was too thin and shearing or slinging from the angular velocity of the bearings.. idk since I haven't done the math yet, but what I am saying is where is all this "mass misinfomation" in this thread? The first number denotes the ability to pour at a given temp and the second number is the "rating" of viscosity at another temp. The lower the first number, the better it flows/pours at cold and the higher the second number, the better it stays oil when hotter. Simply put... :drunk:

Edited by 86 Wonder Wedge, 30 November 2012 - 01:42 AM.





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