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Religion discussion of the week. Sealants...


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23 replies to this topic

#1 Ricearu

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:20 PM

So I am assembling my ej251 fresh back from the machine shop, some say use fujibond, some say use "THE RIGHT STUFF" in a can, and some say other sealants. What would you use on your car or a customer's car? When I say this, I am speaking of case halves, oil pump, and separator plate.

I have heard of using loctite flange sealant but what can/can't you use it on? can you use it on the water pump and oil pump?

Also, I am about to rebuild my brother's 02 WRX transmission, what is best/ best substitute sealant for the halves and tail section?

#2 CNY_Dave

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:43 PM

Permatex UltraGrey is equivalent to the fujibond.

Just used it to replace my rusted-out oil pan.

#3 cal_look_zero

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:18 PM

Ultra grey.

#4 porcupine73

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:54 PM

Ultra grey does seem to work pretty well. That said some members strongly suggest an anaerobic sealant. There is a chart of recommendations from Subaru somewhere, I'm sure i can find it, one moment....

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#5 Quidam

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:57 PM

[QUOTE][quote name='Ricearu']So I am assembling my ej251 fresh back from the machine shop, some say use fujibond, some say use "THE RIGHT STUFF" in a can, and some say other sealants. What would you use on your car or a customer's car? When I say this, I am speaking of case halves, oil pump, and separator plate.[/QUOTE]

The grey Permatex is the hardest setting of that line of silicone and it's what I would use on case halves.

[QUOTE]I have heard of using loctite flange sealant but what can/can't you use it on? can you use it on the water pump and oil pump?[/QUOTE]

I use Permatex #2 soft setting to glue water pump gaskets to the water pump. Same stuff I glue the thermostat gasket to the thermostat housing. Non stick the gasket faces if they aren't all ready and you can remove either and put them back on without a fuss. They stay in place.

Doug

#6 davebugs

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:58 PM

Ultra Grey is all that I use on Subaru's.

Easy to find, priced reasonable, seems to set up harder than a lot of sealants.

I never found a reason to look for anything more exotic.

#7 avk

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:16 PM

I used Ultra Grey for the timing belt job, like most people. I also used Right Stuff from a pressurized can to reseal a transmission pan on my minivan, and it worked very well too.

Edited by avk, 07 November 2012 - 08:20 PM.


#8 Idasho

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:23 PM

For any machined/machined surfaces, you do NOT want RTV. You need an anaerobic gasket maker.

loctite 518 / permatex 51817

As far as items like pans, Im 100% sold on Toyota's black RTV. :headbang:

#9 avk

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:38 PM

The instructions for Ultra Grey do specify that it can be used between machined surfaces, which is why people use it between the oil pump and the block. Of course, anaerobic kind would be fine there as well.

#10 grossgary

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:19 PM

I use Permatex anaerobic on my own stuff, will use ultra grey too.

I use Permatex #2 soft setting to glue water pump gaskets to the water pump. Same stuff I glue the thermostat gasket to the thermostat housing.

EJ water pump gaskets and thermostats gaskets get no sealant, they are of a different design. But the EJ aftermarket water pump gaskets are poor quality thin cardboard like material that should have sealant if they're used, but most folks stick with the OEM metal gasket which has proved quite robust.

Non stick the gasket faces if they aren't all ready and you can remove either and put them back on without a fuss. They stay in place.

that is a nice hit, what I would do to turn back time and avoid all the gasket scraping i've done on those!

Edited by grossgary, 07 November 2012 - 09:21 PM.


#11 Idasho

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:43 PM

The instructions for Ultra Grey do specify that it can be used between machined surfaces, which is why people use it between the oil pump and the block. Of course, anaerobic kind would be fine there as well.


Oil pump and case you could get away with.

But case halves is a big no-no. using RTV will not allow the halves to seat correctly, which will effect bearing clearances within the case.

#12 Fairtax4me

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:06 PM

Paper gaskets can be used on a CLEAN flat surface with no sealers. If it is going to be exposed to oil, wipe the gasket with oil first. Otherwise it should need no sealant. If you need sealant it's because the sealing surfaces are not clean or flat enough.

Ultra grey is not the same as Fuji-bond. It's not even close. Fuji-bond is far and away a better sealer than Ultra Grey. However, Fuij-bond is not practical to buy here in the U.S., and Ultra Grey works better than many other RTV sealers available here.

Flange sealant works well for flat close tolerance gasket surfaces, such as between two machined pieces of metal. Engine block halves, transmission case halves, oil pump housing, that sort of thing. It will not fill large gaps such as the ones between oil pans or valve covers.

#13 avk

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:15 PM

Oil pump and case you could get away with.

But case halves is a big no-no. using RTV will not allow the halves to seat correctly, which will effect bearing clearances within the case.

ThreeBond 1215 (p/n 004403007) is specified in the FSM for that purpose, and it is not a part of their anaerobic line.

Edited by avk, 07 November 2012 - 10:19 PM.


#14 Idasho

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:44 PM

ThreeBond 1215 (p/n 004403007) is specified in the FSM for that purpose, and it is not a part of their anaerobic line.


I really dont care what the FSM calls for. RTV simply isnt the stuff to use. The acronym itself shows why.

RTV = room temperature vulcanizing

That means it has the potential to set up BEFORE the parts are assembled. Clearances within the case (main bearings) assume no space in between the case halves. If you have RTV setting up before the case halves are assembled, you WILL effect bearing clearances.

#15 Fairtax4me

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:47 AM

Do you really need RTV all the way down next to the bearing halves? Seems like a waste there.

Subaru also says if you don't get the halves together within X amount of minutes (I think it's 15) after applying sealant to wipe it all off and apply fresh sealant.

#16 avk

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:07 AM

I really dont care what the FSM calls for.

I'm OK with that, it's a "religion" thread, remember?

#17 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 02:53 AM

I don't use RTV anywhere on any Subaru engine or transmission. I have found it to be messy, inconvenient and unprofessional.

Anaerobic does all the sealing work at my shop. Including oil pans. Loctite 518.

I have sealed hundreds of engines and transmissions and not a single one of them leak. They all look professional and my sealant never gets hard on me, never goes bad in the tube or has chunks of dried sealant in it. I don't lose the cap because there isn't one. It doesn't get stuck to rags, fingers and clothes never to come off again.... life is better for me without RTV.

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#18 Ricearu

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:22 PM

I don't use RTV anywhere on any Subaru engine or transmission. I have found it to be messy, inconvenient and unprofessional.

Anaerobic does all the sealing work at my shop. Including oil pans. Loctite 518.

I have sealed hundreds of engines and transmissions and not a single one of them leak. They all look professional and my sealant never gets hard on me, never goes bad in the tube or has chunks of dried sealant in it. I don't lose the cap because there isn't one. It doesn't get stuck to rags, fingers and clothes never to come off again.... life is better for me without RTV.

GD


I didn't know it could seal oil pans on. What happens if it isn't flat? I understand cleanliness is godliness, and I clean everything when I work, but I wasn't of the impression that stamped steel would work with anaerobic sealer.

Do you still use the water pump gasket, or do you just "red" it to death?

also, is there any difference between this and the permatex brand anaerobic sealer?
http://www.amazon.co...rds=loctite 518

Edited by Ricearu, 08 November 2012 - 12:28 PM.


#19 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:49 PM

I use Aisin water pumps and they come with the metal gasket so I use that typically. When I use the NPW pumps (cast impeller which is desireable to some folks and the newer engines come with stamped) that come with paper I use the Anaerobic.

Anaerobic will seal a gap up to .050" when used with the proper Loctite Primer-N. That's larger than most spark plug gaps. The pan is plenty flat for that and I always straighten them if there is any distortion around the bolt holes - usually only when someone has used an aftermarket cork gasket on them.

GD

#20 Ricearu

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 02:51 PM

Looks like I am ordering a tube or two and a can of primer

#21 CrownLoyale

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:41 PM

Can't comment on the case halves, sounds like 518 is the way to go. I use Toyota black FIPG on most everything. It can be messy and if you get it on your fingers it doesn't like to come off easy. Never had any problems with the 'Yota stuff, cant say the same with any of the grey stuff.

#22 Crazyeights

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:46 PM

I really like the 518 too. I have done several EA series case halves with it and a few 5MT trans cases. None of them leak a drop.

#23 Quidam

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:57 PM

You know, I've always considered Fujibond or Ultra Gray on Subaru engines as a structural gasket. Why it sets hard.

Here's a bit on that and Subaru was sealing EA 82's with Fujibond in 1985, weren't they. Is Fujibond considered a structural gasket?
Structural Gasketing - Chrysler Reduces Deflection in A 523 Transaxles



Date Published: 1990-02-01
Paper Number: 900200
DOI: 10.4271/900200


Citation:

Bratcher, R., Bonutti, H., and Myers, R., "Structural Gasketing - Chrysler Reduces Deflection in A 523 Transaxles," SAE Technical Paper 900200, 1990, doi:10.4271/900200.

Author(s):


Roger Bratcher - Loctite Corp.
Hank Bonutti - Loctite Corp.
Richard A. Myers - Association of Renault And Chrysler

Abstract:


Structural gasketing is a dual purpose product technology that not only provides fluid sealing but also enhances the load carrying ability of the assembly. This gasketing approach has been used by automakers for 15 years and was recently adopted by Chrysler on their FWD manual transaxles. Transaxle housing deflection across joints was reduced by over 50%, torque capacity was increased 10% (due to better gear and bearing alignment), and sealing warranty was reduced by over 90%. Field experience correlates very well to laboratory tests of thin film structural gasketing in heavily bolted joints, which evidence greatly enhanced shear stiffness and strength over other gasketing methods.










HYLOMAR has been around for a long time, here's their listing for engine and transmission case halves.




"Hylomar Gasket 2000 is a formed in place (FIP) single component anaerobic curing flexible sealant, which cures in the joint to form a flexible plastic seal. The product is designed to replace traditional solid gaskets. The thixotropic properties of Hylomar Gasket 2000 prevent migration of the sealant before or during curing. Once cured the compound is resistant to shock and vibration.

Typical applications include structural gasketing of engines and transmission components and for general engineering uses. Hylomar Gasket 2000 will seal against gases, water, LPG, hydrocarbons, oils, and other chemicals.

Use Anaerobic Activator to clean surfaces and accelerate cure times. To eliminate extra gasket maker, use Hylomar Rally Wipes.

Curing System: Anaerobic
Average Cure Time: 1 hr
Functional Cure Time: 3 - 6 hrs
Temperature Range (Cured): -60 Deg. F. to 300 Deg. F.


I'd try this stuff on an engine.


Here's their other version.

Hylomar Multi Gasket 4000 is an anaerobic curing adhesive for the gasketing and sealing of flanges. It replaces solid gaskets, giving a flexible cured film.

Hylomar 4000 is typically used on cast oil sumps, carburetor manifolds, alloy rocker rovers, differential casings, axle flanges and other machined surfaces.

Use Anaerobic Activator to clean surfaces and accelerate cure times. To eliminate extra gasket maker, use Hylomar Rally Wipes.

Curing System: Anaerobic
Handling Time: 10 - 20 min.
Functional Cure Time: 3 - 6 hrs.
Temperature Range (Cured): -70 Deg. F. to 300 Deg. F.


What do you all think?


Doug

#24 ShawnW

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 06:23 PM

Red Fujibond has never failed me. Not for an engine case and frankly its pretty crazy to think that Subaru's factory manual calling for it is a bad thing. In my shop-what they say in the book goes unless I know I can do better, for less money, etc but those instances are certainly rare and don't apply to sealants. For the water pump I like the metal oem type gasket. It comes with the good pumps like GD mentioned above. Its much easier to clean up a metal oem type gasket than silicone next time someone needs to replace it and I like that.

I use ultra grey on surfaces that I don't consider extreme critical. Things that don't come apart in a matter of minutes like the rear separator plate or something of that nature. Its certainly a lot cheaper than Fujibond-about 1/3 the cost and much more convenient for most people to obtain.




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