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TSB from AU/NZ concerning Gates timing belt installlation


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34 replies to this topic

#1 Turbone

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

Not sure if this has been discussed or not, but I got this link from a member here (unable to post it) But the info should pertain to all of the US.

http://www.gates.com...cation_id=18884

#2 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:00 PM

I've never seen that happen. But then I always follow the specs on fitment of that guide plate as well as the ones on the DOHC rear belt covers (if equipped).

I have never had any trouble at all running a feeler gauge into the gap to check clearance. I always check at the middle and at either end. Same with the corner guides on the belt covers.

Neat tool though.... I guess us Americans don't get them? :cool:

GD

#3 Turbone

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:07 PM

Havent checked the website yet, but I would assume we do.

Went to the corporate site and checked the part numbers, dont see anything listed that was in the TSB yet.

Email sent to corporate, will post results.

Edited by Turbone, 25 November 2012 - 04:31 PM.


#4 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:15 PM

I can't find anything about them outside of Australia and the part numbers don't seem to cross over to anything on the US side.

GD

#5 porcupine73

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:39 PM

I know I've seen in the Subaru service info to use a feeler gauge to check the clearance on that guide on the MT vehicles. Maybe some people are just putting it back in without doing that so that it is touching the belt and causing those failures. Because that failure seems like it would happen with a genuine belt or any aftermarket belt.

#6 Turbone

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:44 PM

Using a feeler gauge while the engine is still in the car is/would be a pita.
When you tighten the bolts it moves the plate tighter, so the tool Gates provides means you dont need to use the feeler gauge, you just stick it in there and tighten the bolts. We really should have this available here :-\

#7 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:53 PM

it seems weird for a manufacturer to issue a TSB about an aftermarket part.

and, it does seem you could use 3 narrow loops of solid 18 gauge wire - one in the middle and one at each end - , or, just check with a feeler gauge as mentioned. But, if it came in the gates kit, I'd definitely use it!

#8 porcupine73

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:54 PM

It's not a Subaru TSB; it's a Gates TSB. That little special tool does look nice. If people really liked them maybe a group buy could get set up to get a couple dozen shipped over from Australia?

#9 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:27 PM

I remove the radiator 100% of the time when doing timing belts and there is plenty of room to get a feeler gauge in there.

GD

#10 porcupine73

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:56 PM

Agreed, probably esp on the MT's. I've done maybe 5 Subaru TB's, and pulling the radiator is easier than having to try to get all the fan bolts out at least here in the rust belt, and probably even moreso on the MT"s with no AT cooler hoses.

#11 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:15 PM

Newer stuff the fans remove easier but I like having the extra room and I can blow out the fins of the radiator and inspect it for tank leaks easier with it out.

GD

#12 Fairtax4me

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:51 PM

What would be wrong with just removing the guide plate?

#13 Turbone

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:24 PM

It's not a Subaru TSB; it's a Gates TSB. That little special tool does look nice. If people really liked them maybe a group buy could get set up to get a couple dozen shipped over from Australia?


Correct, I should have pointed that out originally.

I remove the radiator 100% of the time when doing timing belts and there is plenty of room to get a feeler gauge in there.

GD


Yeah, you have plenty of room when the rad is removed. I just think using the FG for setting the guide plate clearance could be problematic.
With the tool from Gates its just slap it in there and tighten the bolts.

What would be wrong with just removing the guide plate?


The guide plate keeps the belt from possibly jumping teeth.

#14 Caboobaroo

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:38 PM

I've found that the pull pin for the timing belt tensioner are usually perfect for sliding in there to check them. I have tons of them laying around and seem to work pretty good.

#15 Fairtax4me

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:42 PM

The guide plate keeps the belt from possibly jumping teeth.


When did jumped timing due to the lack of this guide become an issue?
I had heard of some newer cars having problems with that during transport because of the car being rocked around while in gear. It seems to me that EJ engines were sold for about a decade before this little idea came up, how frequently can jumped timing be traced directly back to this guide plate not being in place?
Seems to me the timing tensioner should hold adequate tension on the belt to prevent jumping.

#16 nipper

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:52 AM

I remove the radiator 100% of the time when doing timing belts and there is plenty of room to get a feeler gauge in there.

GD


I didnt know anyone who didnt remove the radiator, just seems like the rational thing to do to give you some elbow room.

I do remember, maybe on USMB, one person having a melted TB cover and we just couldnt figure out why it happened, but that was years ago.

#17 nipper

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:56 AM

When did jumped timing due to the lack of this guide become an issue?
I had heard of some newer cars having problems with that during transport because of the car being rocked around while in gear. It seems to me that EJ engines were sold for about a decade before this little idea came up, how frequently can jumped timing be traced directly back to this guide plate not being in place?
Seems to me the timing tensioner should hold adequate tension on the belt to prevent jumping.


Not really. You have to look at it as a complicated system of pullies. You have just the crank moving back and forth just a little bit, not enough to turn the cams. With enough jostling, you can easily get the timing belt to jump. In real daily life, the TB would never ever see this kind of stress so it is not an issue. On a truck being delivered, rolling back and forth not even a complete rotation it can become one. And the more pullies there are, the higher the chances of it happenining.

#18 Subaru_dude

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:05 AM

Not really. You have to look at it as a complicated system of pullies. You have just the crank moving back and forth just a little bit, not enough to turn the cams. With enough jostling, you can easily get the timing belt to jump. In real daily life, the TB would never ever see this kind of stress so it is not an issue. On a truck being delivered, rolling back and forth not even a complete rotation it can become one. And the more pullies there are, the higher the chances of it happenining.


So it's there for transport and it can be removed? That's what it sounds like you're saying, but looking at the belt and using my own brain instead of somebody elses judgement I would say that little thing is more or less cheap insurance. I would say removal is a personal call. A good indication it's not necessary is it's not on earlier models.

#19 Turbone

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:30 AM

I got a reply back from Gates already.

Part number for the tool is 91052.

#20 porcupine73

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:03 AM

Hm couldn't find it with google search, though this page came up, looks like it's basically the PDF but as a web page http://www.gates.com...lobal=australia

#21 Turbone

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:15 AM

I sent another email and got a quick reply.
They will be thrown in with the full kits.

#22 Legacy777

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:11 PM

When did jumped timing due to the lack of this guide become an issue?
I had heard of some newer cars having problems with that during transport because of the car being rocked around while in gear. It seems to me that EJ engines were sold for about a decade before this little idea came up, how frequently can jumped timing be traced directly back to this guide plate not being in place?
Seems to me the timing tensioner should hold adequate tension on the belt to prevent jumping.




I'll throw in my two cents on the guide plate. When I did the timing belt on the 06 Legacy I previously owned I noticed the newer style timing belt tensioner doesn't appear to hold the belt and "tight" as the older style tensioners. As a result of that, the guide may be there to help prevent the belt from jumping a tooth.

It looks like on the Legacy line, the plate didn't get added until the 3rd gen Legacies, even though the newer style tensioner was used on the 2nd gen Legacies.

That tool that Gates came up with is pretty cool!

#23 porcupine73

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:14 PM

Hm I don't know all applications that use the guide plate, I just assumed it was on all MT soobs. I thought I remember seeing on Endwrench that it was to prevent them from jumping time if parked in gear on a steep hill, I think that's what they said.

#24 rxleone

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:20 PM

I remember when I used to work in a parts store in NZ we had this problem come back from a shop under warranty. The hydraulic tensioner ended up failing, seized and shredded the belt on a late-90's DOHC engine, and the workshop brought the tensioner back to claim the repairs to the engine under warranty. The whole timing assembly was sent away for analysis and it was determined that the engine failed due to the backing plate being set incorrectly, therefore putting the fault on the workshop.

Was a nightmare of a position to be in, the middle man between two companies blaming each other, but Gates ended up on top. That's the only time I've heard of it though. Hope it helps.

#25 Caboobaroo

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:15 PM

Hm I don't know all applications that use the guide plate, I just assumed it was on all MT soobs. I thought I remember seeing on Endwrench that it was to prevent them from jumping time if parked in gear on a steep hill, I think that's what they said.


Pretty much the reason. They started putting the crank guide plate on manual transmission cars as when they were on the boat getting shipped, they were left in gear and would jump the timing belt.




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