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non-resistor spark plugs


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16 replies to this topic

#1 subarugt

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 02:58 PM

Does anyone know of any specific item numbers for non-resistor
plugs for a 98 EJ25 normally aspirated?

I want the resistance between hv input to the center electrode to
be at a bare minimum.

I see the Champion 3346 are listed as non-resistor, but it could still
have suppression with high resistance. Does anyone know the
actual resistance for this plug?

Autolite XP3924 is also listed as non-resistor, but same thing. Does
anyone know the specs for the resistance? I can't find the details
online as if these are big secrets.

Any help would be appreciated for any leads on non-resistor plugs.



#2 Fairtax4me

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 08:22 PM

Why do you want non-resistor plugs on a system that was designed to use resistor plugs?
Wasted spark ignition systems do not work with non-resistor plugs. Unless you're planning to upgrade to a standalone management system that will handle ignition control on multiple coils and ditch the stock coil design, you need to stick with the resistor plugs.

#3 subarugt

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 09:39 PM

Wasted spark ignition systems work just fine with non-resistors - first time I ever heard that one.

 

What I need are non-resistor plugs that fit the EJ25 engine - if anyone knows of any, that would be great.



#4 nipper

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 10:20 PM

I didnt even know they still made non resisitor plugs to be honest.



#5 subarugt

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:54 PM

Yes, for lawnmowers, bikes, boats, etc... non-resistors are really common.

 

For cars, mostly for racing applications.

 

Most of the claims about non-resistor plugs causing a lot of interference is bogus. Not sure how people have fell for it for all these years.

A stock Kettering spark ignition system with high resistance wires (even wires claimed to be low resistance are still very high resistance)

and so are plug with resistors that are claimed to be "low resistance" has an average of about 99% of the spark energy wasted in that

resistance. Only about 0.01%, produces the spark. Therefore, the normal Kettering spark ignitions sytems are about 0.01%

efficient (at the plug).

 

With true low resistance wires and non-resistor plugs, you can easily get 15% efficiency at the spark plug with a factory ignition coil and

that is a fact that remains true on virtually every car. But of course most gains in efficiency are almost always sabotaged by the o2 sensor

so you have to deal with that too in addition to the map or maf sensors that keep the same fuel pumping even when it is burning better in

the combustion chamber.

 

Anyway, a discharge across a spark gap will cause RF interference, that much is true. However, it is grounded out in the combustion chamber and there

is almost never any "whirrrrring" on the sound system speakers and it normally doesn't interefere with the computer controls. With non-resistor

plugs and custom plugs wires made from copper tubing stuffed in nylon clear plastic tubing makes as close as you can get to 0 ohms resistance and

to date, I don't know anyone that has any buzzing on their stereo and no interference with computer controls.

 

To address the first comment from the other response (not arguing - just stating a fact)...

"Why do you want non-resistor plugs on a system that was designed to use resistor plugs?"

 

There is no such thing as an ignition system designed to use resistor plugs. There is however, ignition systems that come with resistor plugs and

everyone is told it is for suppression of RF to prevent interference with computer controls, etc... that claim is almost always untrue.

 

Point is - a non resistor plug doesn't just allow you to get more energy at the spark plug, a special ignition method originally known as

"Plasma Jet Ignition" works only with low resistance. It is a special technique to mix low voltage and high current from a capacitor over the

gap with high voltage and low current. The result is an incredibly fast longitudinal impulse where the cap discharge is actually accelerated

because of the negative resistance effect - simply meaning you're taking all the joules of potential and discharging into a short period

of time that is shorter than conventional wisdom says is possible.

 

The results have shown virtually no detectible emissions with a 5 gas analyzer, it instantly burns the hydrogen right out of the moisture in

the air that is present without needing to electrolyze the water first, and the more compression and air you jam on that gap with this form

of plasma, it grows bigger and bigger instead of being snuffed out, which is completely opposite of what happens with a normal spark, cdi

or msd discharge or even peaking caps.

 

I'd guess that almost no members on this forum have heard of a Plasma Jet Ignition - because the downfall is that it can eat your plugs

alive if you have normal plugs even if they're non -resistors. Tungsten or the HV electrode and the ground both is the most desirable

for extreme long life, but that isn't available without custom making them.

 

A few of my friends have modified plugs with tungsten electrodes and it works great. I have tungsten ignitors in my jet engine that I run

with the plasma jet ignition. "jet" doesn't mean jet engine in regards to the ignition, that is from the ignitors (plugs) that have the right

geometry to shape the plasma burst into a small jet flame shape. I also use the plasma jet ignition on my gas generator.

 

I'm just interested in some basic tests on a EJ25 with the plasma and that is why I need non-resistor plugs for it.

 

There doesn't seem to be any that are intended for this engine but there are plenty of non-resistor plugs that have 14mm threads

and 3/4" reach so maybe I'll try those.

 

I love the Legacy as I'm in a snowy place, but it is completely disappointing that it is very difficult to find any real performance parts for

the ignition. MSD doesn't even have a unit for these cars - people are just putting in Dodge Neon ignition coils  and Neon MSD's.

They work on the Subarus, but 2 out of 4 holes for the coil line up. Anyway, amazing car and equally amazing at the lack of availability

for various aftermarket parts.


Edited by subarugt, 11 February 2013 - 03:23 AM.


#6 subarugt

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:34 AM

Just some examples of the many non-resistors made for cars:

http://www.ebay.com/... .750"&_sacat=0

 

Those are 14mm with .750" reach.

 

Factory spec seems to be:

  • Diameter: 14mm
  • reach:19mm (3/4")
  • Hex Spanner Size: 16mm (5/8")
  • seal_type:Gasket Seat
So any of those should work I believe. Most are gasket seat type and not tapered.
 
There are some resistor plugs like some champions that you can unscrew the top and actuall pull out the spring loaded resistor and replace it with a solid wire.

Out of any of the makers, I'm partial to NGK.


#7 NorthWet

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:52 AM

Wow...

 

The OP does not want any information other than a P/N for a non-resistor plug.

 

I would suggest that we all accept that and not argue the point. :)



#8 NorthWet

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 02:16 AM

A little research gave the following trail to follow:

 

NGK's parts-number decode information:

http://www.ngksparkp...rtnumberkey.pdf

 

NGK's racing plugs table:

http://www.ngksparkp...ngspecs2010.pdf

 

My suggestion is to take an NGK plug of a type that you want (e.g. - BKR5ES-11, decode it for thread size (14mm), hex size (5/8"), and reach (3/4"), and then use the racing plug table to find a similar physical plug in a racing style.  (Heat range should be totally irrelevant for your purpose, as is gap identifier.)  "Google" who has that plug, and go from there.  Jegs has the R5672A-8, as well as others in that style.

 

If you want a different brand, you can find similar decoder and racing/non-resistor charts for that brand, or use a cross-reference for the one you do have, such as:

http://www.sparkplug.../NGK_PN/R5672-8

 

Happy researching. :)



#9 Fairtax4me

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 02:34 AM

The reason wasted spark systems need resistor plugs is to make sure the plug under compression actually sparks. Like you said it has nothing to do with RFI. The wiring that is really sensitive to RFI is shielded (cam and crank sensors) or will have converter circuitry built into the sensor to keep spark RF from altering the signal being sent back to the ECU.
As for radios, they've had noise filters built in for years to deal with that kind of thing.

Seems like you already know which plugs you want. Check out Sparkplugs.com and you can filter search results down by thread size, reach, type, metal, brand, every detail that matters.

#10 subarugt

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 03:19 AM

The reason wasted spark systems need resistor plugs is to make sure the plug under compression actually sparks. Like you said it has nothing to do with RFI. The wiring that is really sensitive to RFI is shielded (cam and crank sensors) or will have converter circuitry built into the sensor to keep spark RF from altering the signal being sent back to the ECU.
As for radios, they've had noise filters built in for years to deal with that kind of thing.

Seems like you already know which plugs you want. Check out Sparkplugs.com and you can filter search results down by thread size, reach, type, metal, brand, every detail that matters.


I agree with the RF filters, etc...

 

Yes, we want the plug to spark under compression. However, anytime you have resistance, you get a "voltage drop" across that resistance so the voltage potential available from the cable will be reduced when it goes through a resistive spark plug. With a non-resistor plug, you actually get more voltage potential available and therefore a stronger spark that can hold up to even higher compression than a resistive plug. Also, with any resistance, it simultaneously lowers the amount of current, which moves in the opposite direction of the voltage. So a spark plug with a resistor actually reduces the spark so under compression, you actually get a stronger spark with a non-resistor plug. That is one of the reasons many high compression race engines use non-resistor plugs because a resistive plug won't even fire.

 

Sorry, don't know what OP is. No offence intended, but I really do have a specific application for the non-resistor plug and wasn't seeking advice on it - just wanted to know about the plugs. I appreciate the references you provided.

 

Anyway, this might be what I'll go with first: http://www.amazon.co...ASIN=B001P27QE0

 

Some other sites like Ebay, etc... have them at a lower cost but those should work.

 

They are very cold but fouling won't happen. The normal "J-strap" ground electrode is cut back so there is less quenching and the flame front is more directly exposed to the fuel for better efficiency.

 

They still won't hold up to the plasma long term, but they should be good for some preliminary tests. My goal is gas mileage improvement and not hot rodding. When I got my car, it was getting about 25 mpg on the highway and now I get up to 29.5 mpg on the highway for the 2.5 liter 5 speed. I think I can get 35 mpg on hwy at minimum with the plasma and a non-typical MAF modification. Running lean isn't an issue with the plasma jet ignition method. It can run ultra lean conditions at 17:1 to 20:1 and much leaner on the bench just to prove the point - with a temperature DROP of over 100F. Different rules apply to lean burn when you go ultra lean with plasma.

 

With a few tricks, I had a 1991 Honda Civic DX 1.5 liter 5-speed that went from 28 in the city to 43 in the city with normal driving (for me that is a little heavy on the gas) - I don't believe in hypermilling because the car is made to be used and driving like that is like walking on eggshells.

 

Here's what I'm up to...

 

I have spent literally thousands of hours testing ignitions for multiple purposes and my patent pending plasma ignition method is the most efficient one in the world. I made the secondary power supply for plasma jet ignitions that NASA,

Princeton, virtually every auto manufacturer in the world developed obsolete. Basically, I can get the identical plasma effect at the plug they all get with a fraction of the energy - because of the method I use.

 

Just fyi... every major auto manufacturer in the US and Japan has patents or apps for plasma jet ignitions and they all require secondary power supplies. They also have patents for plasma jet ignitors (fancy plugs to shape the flame kernal).

 

Anyway, I'm not here to "plug" my work so I'll remove my name, pun intended. lol

 

Here is an example:

 

 

Posted Image As you can see,
the standard Kettering Spark Ignition can be as low as 0.01%
efficient in converting power to a spark at the gap, which runs almost
every gasoline powered engine in the world. Posted Image Peaking Capacitors
are MASSIVELY more efficient at converting the standard spark ignition
power to a spark - upwards to 50% efficient! Notice that is 50% and
NOT one-hundredths of one percent. That is quite a difference, but
is all the hype justified? Posted Image Capacitive
Discharge Ignition
systems have a separate power supply and are
the prime choice for serious results. The dense blue ball at the gap
is substantially more powerful than the peaking cap but it is hard
to tell from the picture. Posted Image _____________ method uses the SAME amount of power as the CDI
system but is so much brighter and more powerful that it is beyond
words. It isn't even a spark or an enhanced spark - it is in a category
all by itself - it is a bright white ball of wonder!


 

Please take note that the impulse you see at the bottom one is literally many hundreds of times more energy dense than the CDI, and it uses the EXACT same amount of enregy per discharge on the input. There is no notable ignition company in the world that can touch this. Anyway, a capacitor can normally discharge over a certain period of time because of line impedances/resistances so it actually slows the discharge. I found a way around that and the impedances and resistances disappear for 2/3 of the discharge - it is an interesting negative resistance effect and is heavily documented (violates ohms law) - that is what makes that ball of sunshine at the sparkplug for the SAME energy as a typical CDI. It isn't about adding more energy, it is about tricking the HV potential to associate itself with very large current that it normally wouldn't associate with. Anyway, it is a really interesting field of ignitions sciences - plasma jet ignitions - if anyone is interested, there is plenty online about it.

 

If you experiment with it, it is so loud it will make you deaf and it is so bright, it will blind you so use hearing protection and sunglasses - again, for the SAME energy that a CDI uses! It's pretty trippy.

 

I'll post results at some point for the Subaru so maybe other Subaru owners are interested in exploring a whole new field of ignitions science that is mostly unknown to the public.



#11 NorthWet

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:23 AM

OP = Original Poster, the person who started the thread.

 

Sorry for the shorthand.  Many threads go astray due to people trying to tell the original poster that they are wrong, rather than either answering the question or not commenting at all.



#12 subarugt

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:11 PM

That plug I wanted has too big of a hex and I want to keep it standard sized as much as possible.

 

So, I wound up ordering  the NGK R5671A-11, #6596 - it is the V-Groove racing plugs and they

should fit perfectly. The total for 4 is about $15 delivered.

 

The response I got from NGK is that the only plug avail in the states for the EJ25 they make that

are intended for a Subaru is the NGK BCP5ES, #7496 - that is a standard geometry non-resistor

plug. These are only a couple $ a piece too.

 

Both of the above can be ordered through any local car parts store.



#13 subarugt

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 04:06 AM

I received those NGK's and they're the lowest ohm non-resistor plugs I've seen. Measured from 0.00 ohms to 0.3 ohms so these are absolutely perfect for the plasma.

 

Even if you don't use the plasma ignition, there will be an automatic increase in combustion efficiency.



#14 Fairtax4me

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 10:36 AM

What setup are you using to control this plasma ignition system?


Those plugs are 1 step hotter than a stock plug for Subaru. With a "typical" ignition system pinging may be an issue due to the extra heat withheld by the plug. Ejs tend to run lean anyway so this could lead to other problems. (Internal engine damage)

#15 subarugt

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 06:50 PM

I can take any off the shelf CDI or MSD and do one simple mod and it makes this plasma. It is patent pending right now and I do sell a book/video package telling people how to do it. I'm not here to promote that package but I'll tell you the concept.

 

It takes 5000 volts to jump a 1mm gap in open dry air normally. So, how do you get 400 volts to jump the same kind of gap, which is supposed to be impossible?

 

You put a CDI capacitor in parallel with the plug's gap with HV diodes arranged in the right way and when the HV jumps the gap, it ionizes the gap and makes it conductive so the low voltage high current capacitor will jump the gap. It mixes HV and low current with LV and high current simultaneously over a spark plug gap. The HV is a way higher voltage than the low voltage cap's current is used to and the HV PULLS the current from the cap at negative resistance defeating ohm's law and you get an impulse that is way faster than is supposed to happen. What you're seeing is a capacitor discharging except that all the resistance and impedances have disappeared for the first 2/3 of the cap discharge so you're compressing it into a smaller period of time that is supposed to be possible.

 

Anyway, those NGK's are cold plugs at 11. The manual I have printed have 3 recommended plugs for the EJ25 and all three listed are the same heat range 11.

 

Please tell me more about the EJ's running lean.



#16 Fairtax4me

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 08:08 PM

I had to go check because I wasn't sure, but you're right those are way cold. I didnt know before that the racing plugs last digits are the heat range. On standard plugs the last two digits are the gap size, and heat range is the 4th or 5th digit depending on the plug.
Those would be way too cold to run with a stock ignition setup. They're 6 points colder than the stock BKR5E-11.

The Ej engines do tend to run on the lean side. Subaru has the fuel mapping lean for economy reasons, but the DOHC 2.5 seems to run a bit more lean than the others, especially in the upper RPM range. The heads flow very well and the big displacement needs more fuel than the tuning allows. So the spark plugs tend to come out white when they get changed. White powdery deposits are an indicator of hot combustion which is usually due to lean A/F ratio.

With the increase in amperage across the plugs that would increase heat generation, so it seems like that would cause them to wear quite a bit faster. And a wasted spark system fires the plugs twice as often, that which leads to shorter plug life even with a standard ignition system. What kind of life do you get from a set of plugs running this plasma ignition system? Have you modified a wasted spark system to use this before?

Edited by Fairtax4me, 17 February 2013 - 08:24 PM.


#17 soobie_newbie67

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 08:40 PM

Honestly, you shouldnt even be showing us this till its finished and patented so no one can steal it.  Dont worry, i wont.  I flunked high school xD






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