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EGR or Not, emission canister or not, other things too


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16 replies to this topic

#1 newgen85brat

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:14 PM

With this new format, I have lost the ability to search for some things.  I run into a lot of missing pages.   I was looking to see about EGR valves, emission canister and other plugged items.  I just bought another EA 81. I have a new Weber on my old EA so I am in the process pulling it and making the new motor fresh.  (Oil pump, gaskets etc.)  The new motor had some porting and polishing on the heads and manifolds so I am trying to figure if the guy was good or wishfully trying things.  The motor had recently worked heads which look good but then the guy had taken panty hose and hose clamps to use for breathers on the hoses from the valve covers so kind of a hack?

 

The "new" motor has a welded up EGR valve.  Should I keep it that way or put one back on?  Will it make a difference?

 

Some of the other ports etc are plugged/welded so should I follow the previous owners start or go back to mostly stock?

 

Should you get rid of the canister or keep it?  I have seen it both ways and would like a definitive answer.

 

I want to keep it simple, I love getting rid of hoses. 

 

Thank you for your help.

 

 

 

 



#2 El Presidente

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:25 PM

Keep it simple and leave everything off, you don't need it and you'll get better performance without them. EGR's decrease your performance by allowing inert gases into the intake charge at higher RPM, which basicly reduces the displacement of the motor. They allow a bunch of dirt and soot into you motor too and also frequently casue idle problems. The carbon canister catches gasoline vapors from the tank that would normally get vented off. In theory they do give you better MPG's, but we're talking very small amounts. Both systems are strictly for emmisions. With a Weber the only vacuum lines you need/what is for your brake booster, dizzy, HVAC controls, and PCV system...if you have cruise you'll need a line for that too.

 

The panty hose on the valve covers was to replace the PCV system...you don't need this system, but is does help the motor last longer by getting caustic gases out of the crankcase. It also creates a small amount of vacuum in the crankcase, which helps the rings seal and reduces oil leaks(slightly). There are good reasons to get rid of it though..I disconnected my PCV system when I had an EA82 in my wheeler. When I'd get it off camber all the oil would sit on one side of the motor and the PCV system would start sucking oil into my intake. This can also happen when taking really hard turns on the street, but you gotta really get into it to do that. If its staying on the street, I'd run a PCV..your oil will be cleaner, longer.

 

Josh



#3 newgen85brat

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:24 PM

Thanks for the answer.  So without all the stuff, what is the set up and routing from the valve covers? 



#4 djellum

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 09:52 PM

To run a PCV - Fresh air in the passenger side head, drivers side head running to the pcv valve.  Most people put a T with a small hose between the drivers side and pcv to allow a vent and to decrease the strength of the vacuum pulling on the oil.  use a genuine Subaru pcv valve.  I was advised to do that and didnt listen.  2 weeks of of drinking 1 quart of oil a week and 2 pcv's later, I finally bought one and it improved dramatically. 

 

if you do decide to run without then you just need a breather cap on both heads.  you can get them in any parts store.

 

running without isn't a terribly good option, you will want to change your oil much more often, so the cost and hassle of changing the oil all the time is annoying. A better option if you are having issues with oil consumption that you cant get rid of is to put a catch can on there.  its largely just and expansion chamber that will catch the oil and gunk that comes out of there and keep it out of the manifold, so I would try that before running without.  you can even make one out of a jar or something to see if it is what you want before you purchase.

 

race setups run pump to vent gases into the exhaust, so If I've always wondered about just hooking up the ASV system to the drivers head to pump gasses into the exhaust.  I never did it since I didn't want to pump oil in there any more than my manifold, but if its just an offroader or something it might work.  No idea how powerfull the ASV's pump though.



#5 naru

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 12:39 PM

Keep it simple and leave everything off, you don't need it and you'll get better performance without them. EGR's decrease your performance by allowing inert gases into the intake charge at higher RPM, which basicly reduces the displacement of the motor. They allow a bunch of dirt and soot into you motor too and also frequently casue idle problems. The carbon canister catches gasoline vapors from the tank that would normally get vented off. In theory they do give you better MPG's, but we're talking very small amounts. Both systems are strictly for emmisions. With a Weber the only vacuum lines you need/what is for your brake booster, dizzy, HVAC controls, and PCV system...if you have cruise you'll need a line for that too.

 

The panty hose on the valve covers was to replace the PCV system...you don't need this system, but is does help the motor last longer by getting caustic gases out of the crankcase. It also creates a small amount of vacuum in the crankcase, which helps the rings seal and reduces oil leaks(slightly). There are good reasons to get rid of it though..I disconnected my PCV system when I had an EA82 in my wheeler. When I'd get it off camber all the oil would sit on one side of the motor and the PCV system would start sucking oil into my intake. This can also happen when taking really hard turns on the street, but you gotta really get into it to do that. If its staying on the street, I'd run a PCV..your oil will be cleaner, longer.

 

Josh

 

Bad advice.

The EGR does not decrese performance whatsoever.

It does not allow dirt into the motor.

It is inoperative at idle.

 

To retain stock performance w/EGR removed requires modifying the ignition curve(less part throttle advance).

Additionly,mileage will go down because of the increase in engine pumping losses.

 

Removing the EGR is for dummies,



#6 newgen85brat

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:45 PM

Well, I am just as not sure as ever.  Anybody else want to chime in?  GD?  I can go either way but want to stay as clean as possible.  I do not want to leak/pull oil or have to make a catch can.  Any ideas on pictures of people' rides that are clean and simple?  Thanks



#7 naru

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:50 PM

Restore the PCV to stock.

You want constant ventilation thru the crankcase to remove water etc.

 

Cannister is optional.

No real downside to removing it other than extra evaporative emissions.



#8 djellum

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:44 PM

i guess going back to the origional question, Id keep the EGR the way it is until later.  the EGR is welded already and there is little effect of having it plugged off.  eventually you may want to get a working one and its easy to install so get everything fixed and tuned up before you worry about it.  I had mine disabled while I fixed a whole slew of issues.  now that they are done I may see if I can hook it back up and see a difference.

 

unhooked the canister.  its tied into the airbox and hitachi in a way that makes it tough to get it fully functioning again.  leaving it half hooked up where it doesnt vent back into the motor seemed to make it useless anyway.  theres 4 lines, one is a vacuum actuator, one goes back into the carb, one is a tank vent and one (if I remember right) is a bowl vent.  Webers dont have a bowl vent line or a hookup port to recycle the fumes so its basically just a canister on the tank vent and depending on how you hook it up, its either plugged or open to atmosphere anyway.  

 

run a PCV, as close to stock as you can, with a genuine Subaru pcv valve.



#9 newgen85brat

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:59 PM

Thanks, I have both the original EGR and the welded one so I can go either way.  I will hook it back up but am not really sure of the routing.  I will have to look around for pics to get all my hoses right.  Thanks again.



#10 djellum

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 10:35 PM

its internally routed, just block the big line that used to go to the antiafterfire valve, and hook the vac line to manifold vacuum.



#11 nipper

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:25 PM

really the first question should be, what does your state inspection require be on the car. Stripping things off can fail you.

 

No reason to strip off the EVAP stuff if it works, as it robs no power.

PCV have been around since the 60's leave it be.

Early EGR valves had some effect on performance, but it was debatable how much since those engines were chocked by many things. Newer EGR valves actually improve performance of the engine (keep in mind performance means the operations of the engine and not necassarily HP or torque) http://en.wikipedia....s_recirculation



#12 El Presidente

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:47 AM

Bad advice.

The EGR does not decrese performance whatsoever.

It does not allow dirt into the motor.

It is inoperative at idle.

 

To retain stock performance w/EGR removed requires modifying the ignition curve(less part throttle advance).

Additionly,mileage will go down because of the increase in engine pumping losses.

 

Removing the EGR is for dummies,

Sorry, but I'm right and you need to research this subject further...

 

We are talking about EA82's and that should be considered in this discussion, we are not talking about newer more modern EGR's, which do have a lot less problems and run much more efficiently.

 

 As I stated, it only affects high rpm performance, but it does, although slightly. These motors(EA82's) need all the help they can get so even a slight increase in power is welcome to most. The "dirt" that is allowed into the intake charge is carbon deposits from the exhaust stream. It is these same carbon deposits that make EGR's go bad...when they go bad, they stay shut, which can throw CEL's or they stay open at lower RPMs, which affects idle, causing idle issues. If you pull your egr, and look at it, you'll see these deposits I'm talking about.

 

Theres no need to adjust timing curves after removing the EGR too. I've pulled many EGR's on many different motors of many different makes. I've NEVER seen a decrease in power or milage, ONLY and increase... This is because at higher RPMs, you get more combustible intake charge into the combustion chamber increasing efficiency, therefore increasing power and mileage. When inert gas(exhaust gas) is introduced in to the intake charge, it basicly decreases the effective displacement of the motor.

 

If removing the ERG is for dummies, why don't you see them on ANY non-DOT approved performance oriented motor?...The reason is that EGR's are sole for emmisions, lowering nitrogen oxide to be specific, and many motors that have come after the EA82 DO NOT have EGR's including some of the EJ motors, like my 93' EJ22(which I didn't remove, because they don't come with one). 

 

This subject has been beaten to death on many forums, including here, so if I haven't convinced you, I encourage you use the search function or google and look for yourself.

 

 

To get back to the OP questions, The PVC routing can be found here on the forum using the search, its really simple. As mentioned before, If you have inspections, I'd keep everything stock, which means a weber may be out for you.

 

Josh



#13 naru

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:08 AM

LOL

You are obviously the one who needs an EGR education.

 

Engine load controls EGR operation,not engine rpm.

The EGR is CLOSED above about 1/3 throtlle opening.

Intake charge is as full as the throttle allows.There is no power loss,

 

You can`t remove what is not there.

 

EGRs were introduced to control nitrogen oxides.A side benefit was a small INCREASE in engine efficeincy at lower throttle openings thru the reduction of engine pumping losses.The engine does not waste energy pumping air it does not need.Effectively,a low throttle displacement decrease,

A good analogy is the way an electric fan speeds up when you restrict the airflow with some carboard,

 

Yup,they will stiill run w/EGR removed.

If you want to retain OPTIMUM timing,you need to recurve.By removing EGR,you have increased cylinder pressures thru the EGR operating range.Timing will now be overadvanced thru that range.Attempts to correct by retarding base timing sacrifices high rpm performance.

Been there.done that.

 

Your ej22 has EGR,just no valve.

Engines like your ej22 have internal EGR.

They use cam timing and head design to control exhaust gas recirculaion



#14 mikaleda

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:07 PM

I think nipper put it best about the EGR.
IMHO I would leave the EGR off just to simplify things

#15 newgen85brat

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:10 PM

Thank you for your help.  Sorry to get things fired up.  I will search for options on ventilation.  I would prefer to have no EGR valve at all.  I live in Iowa so there is not any inspection issues.  I keep all my parts that could be needed later so I can always go back if needed.  

 

The engine also had the tube that runs from the passenger side head to the intake cut and welded.  Should I continue as that also or should that be back in?

 

If I understand this then, all I will need to do is to connect both valve covers and the pcv valve along with a small line to the weber carb base? 

 

It is not as easy to search for things with new format, I keep running into dead ends.  Thanks for your help again.  Walt. 



#16 djellum

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 02:04 AM

breather cap on the passenger side

 

 

the drivers side goes from the head to the PCV valve in the middle of the manifold, it just has an elbow in line somewhere with 2 full size pcv hoses and 1 small 1/4 inch or so hose nipple.  the small hose goes to the air cleaner so it can pull filtered air if needed.



#17 NorthWet

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 01:31 PM

I agree with nipper and naru on this.  A lot of the folklore about PCV and EGR are from the early implementations ('60s and '70's), and many have clung to early problems to support views.

 

If you are driving this in town, you want the PCV for no other reason that vented crankcase fumes STINK.  I mean, they really reek and get into your car interior and your clothes and your hair.  They are oily, so it is almost impossible to get the stink out.  (I used to own a car with a road-draft tube.)  This is a good reason to keep the PCV, even if keeping your engine clean and ventilated, plus that whole ecology thing, doesn't matter.

 

EGR (typically) works at part-throttle only.  It is used to lower peak combustion temperatures. If you eliminate it without any other modifications, you are likely to get detonation in the part-throttle regime.  Other than engine clutter, there is no advantage to removing it.  Different cars have different engine system designs, so some have EGRs and some don't.  Similar results can be achieved by valve timing and intake and exhaust design.  The EA82 engine system was designed with an EGR, and should have mods to this design if you remove the EGR.






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