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1990 Loyale. Has spark and fuel, crank no start


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17 replies to this topic

#1 isaacsni

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:06 AM

Hi all, thanks for taking the time to look at this. 

 

So this car has been giving me nightmares. It's a 90 Loyale and I can't for the life of me figure out why it won't start. The problem started after replacing the head gaskets. After re installing the engine it will not start. It seems to have a healthy spark and the injector is pulsing and injecting fuel but it won't start. I have re checked he cam and distributor timing as well the spark plug wire locations and they are fine. The compression is good. The resistance on the coil primary and secondary is good. i also swapped out the distributor. The one thing that might be strange is that there is quite a bit of fuel being injected per pulse. I'm not sure how much should be shot in in each pulse though. The first time I try to start it it sounds as if it wants its going to fire but just wont quite take off. I'm thinking it might be flooding it out but not sure if this the cause or the effect. There was a little damage to one of the wires in the engine harness, it was only the oil pressure sensor wire but i had another harness so i swapped that in with no change. I have checked all the the grounds, fuses and fusible links and there are all good. There are no codes in the engine control unit. In my checks i found there was some corrosion on the plug for the coil power transistor under the coil but it seems be working because i'm getting spark. Power to the coil is about 11 volts when cranking maybe a little less. I am dropping about a half volt from the battery to the coil. I'm getting to the point where i want to throw a engine computer at it and there only about $75 if i can pull one out of a junk yard but it's money that I'd rather save it if i'm missing something stupid. 

 

Anyone out there have any ideas. 

 

Thanks,

Isaac



#2 coxy

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:47 AM

Sure it is timed correctly re spark on the correct cylinder at the Compression stroke,You can have cam timing 180 degrees out and it will work but the spark is not occuring on the correct stroke,Just a thought. Cheers Coxy



#3 crazyman03

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:13 AM

+1 on timing or even timing belt related. at least double check it to be sure you aren't chasing your tail with the problem. 

 

After a quick search: http://www.ultimates...ng-belt-change/

 

 

-Justin



#4 NorthWet

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:32 AM

Non-distributor-side (US passenger-side) timing belt is likely not set right.  Did you remember to turn the crankshaft a complete rotation before installing the second belt?

 

Since it started before the work and doesn't start now, look for obvious slip-ups before you start looking for exotic problems.



#5 Gloyale

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 07:53 PM

If the belts are correct, you've got the disty in wrong.

 

With the crank at TDC, compression stroke (cam dots "out") pull the disty......reinstall it with the little dot on the gear lined up with the hash mark on the shaft. 

 

It should at least fire then, even if you are a tooth off.  Use a timing light to set final timing.  If you find you can't get it in to time, not enoguh adjustment.....you will need to pull the disty and clock it one tooth to either direction.



#6 isaacsni

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:09 AM

Thanks for all the replies. I rechecked the cam timing and it's spot on. Rechecked the distributor install and its also good. I also cranked the engine by hand to TDC on 1 with the plug out and my finger over the hole to confirm that it was on compression and the distributor was in the correct position. The rotor was also pointing at cyl 1 plug wire. I followed the plug wires around the cap and each one is in he correct position according to firing order. I'm fresh out of ideas on this car other than swapping out the ECU but I have a hard time thinking this will do it.

 

How much fuel should be injected during cranking? If cranking with the intake boot off the throttle body and the throttle closed it will splash up out of the throttle body in a mist with every injection pulse. It just seems to me that it might be injecting too much fuel. Also it will sound like it wants to start the first time I crank it after sitting for a few days. After that it will just crank and not sound like it wants to start like its flooded. But if I pull the plugs and dry them off, the are fuel covered, and crank it with the injector unplugged to blow the fuel out then it will still not sound like it wants to start. 

 

Any other ideas on where to go from here?



#7 Petersubaru

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:30 AM

Hopefully, when installing the timing belts you used the 3 lines on the flywheel and not the "O" degree mark to indicate TDC..


#8 ferp420

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:00 AM

have you tryed the flooding tricks like pinching  the fuel line off then crank it or   holding  the throtle wide open when cranking these usaly work in most flooding cases if its a manual try push or pull starting it ive always had good luck with those few tricks



#9 Numbchux

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:13 AM

An engine needs spark, fuel, and compression to run.


You need to confirm 100% that you have strong spark at the right time. The way to check that is starting fluid. If you don't have any, spend the $3ish on a can. If you're worried about it being flooded out, disconnect the fuel pump (fuse).

If it runs on starting fluid, you have a fuel issue. If not, you have a spark issue.

#10 Dee2

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 05:21 PM

Is the air filter clear ?  Make sure the spark is good at the plugs.



#11 zukiru

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:10 PM

You said you tested the cool and igniter.. But. I had a bad distributor in my 86 XTDL it had spark. But it was too weak to make the car start.

Edit... Nevermind you swapped the distributor.

Edited by zukiru, 21 March 2013 - 11:11 PM.


#12 Cougar

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 01:20 PM

I was thinking you may have the plug wires in the wrong positions in the disty but I see you checked that out already. At this point I would mark the position of the disty and then loosen the clamp on it. Then while someone tries to start the engine rotate the disty in a direction that the engine respondes to try and fire up.



#13 isaacsni

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:32 PM

Ok guys, I'm an idiot. I was going off the 0 mark on the flywheel. I was assuming that was the same as the three lined because the flywheel I have doesn't have the three lines. I got the flywheel from Autozone and it doesn't have the three lines. They were nice enough to order me another flywheel to compare and it also doesn't have the marks. 

 

Does anyone know how many degrees and what direction the three marks should be off from the 0 mark. I think with a torque angle gauge I should be able to get it into the correct position if I know that. I think it should be 90 degrees off from TDC but am not sure and don't know what direction. 

 

Thanks for all the help. 

 

Isaac



#14 MilesFox

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 12:30 AM

the woodruff key on the crank snout will be at 6 o'clock position when centering the crank and installing the first belt. This position is relative tho the III mark on the flywheel. 


Edited by MilesFox, 27 March 2013 - 12:30 AM.


#15 NorthWet

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:05 AM

MilesFox to the rescue! :clap:



#16 Gloyale

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 10:59 AM

An engine needs spark, fuel, and compression to run.


You need to confirm 100% that you have strong spark at the right time. The way to check that is starting fluid. If you don't have any, spend the $3ish on a can. If you're worried about it being flooded out, disconnect the fuel pump (fuse).

If it runs on starting fluid, you have a fuel issue. If not, you have a spark issue.

 Never use starting fluid with an FI engine.  

 

one backfire up the intake, and you will roast the injector, and possibly the MAF.



#17 Gloyale

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:09 AM

Does anyone know how many degrees and what direction the three marks should be off from the 0 mark. I think with a torque angle gauge I should be able to get it into the correct position if I know that. I think it should be 90 degrees off from TDC but am not sure and don't know what direction. 

 

Thanks for all the help. 

 

Isaac

 

90 degrees After TDC.  So that's 90 past the TDC, turning clockwise from front.  And as miles said, the keyway on the crank will be straight down.  At this point the pistons are all in the middle of there bores.

 

It's the same for EJ timing belt marks.  Crank key down = piston in middle = no chance of hitting valves while setting belt timing.



#18 ivans imports

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:09 AM

will not run with intake boot off must be conected have you tryed cranking with feul pump unpluged to clear the flood ? could be just loaded with gas or lifters are pumped up and holding valves open somtimes the first start after enginge work it floods out before the valves pump up






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