1987 GL sealed wheel bearings, '94 tempo springs, toyota bushings

[kanurys]

Parts:

Energy Suspension 8.2105G Bushings

Moog cc856 Progressive Springs & isolator from '94 Ford Tempo v6 w/ air conditioning

Moog Ball Joint

Moog Inner Tie Rod

Moog outer Tie Rod

Sealed Wheel Bearings

National Wheel Seals

KYB Strut Mount

Napa 1990 Loyal 95AC Axle

Black Spray Paint

 

Here's my progress so far:

 

So far so good. I can't compress the springs enough to get them on. I need at least another inch. I might have a buddy at a shop use a full stand-alone spring compressor and throw the struts together for a case of beer.

 

More to come...

Edited April 16, 2013 by kanurys

[czny]

Good job!!

If you can find this tool, K-D Tools # 3387, that's what I use for the Macpherson strut springs. Your local O'Reilly A/P could have it.

Easiest to remove the tools with the 2 compressor shafts lined up at the front & rear of the strut(vehicle front & rear that is). The cut off end of the spring is at the back of the strut so the tools will be 90* out from there.

Be sure to align the tophat with the "outside" out. And don't forget the spacer.

Edited April 7, 2013 by czny

[kanurys]

Thanks Bruce. I'll be sure to get the alignment right. I think that's extra important with this funny spring setup. I've been using an equivalent compressor. Maybe my extra 1/2" free height from yours is getting me into trouble. It's about .25 turns longer.

 

Anyways, that's my only hurdle, so this swap seem so be going alright. (crossing fingers, knocking on wood)

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

...this funny spring setup...

 

The Ford Tempo Coil Springs has been working Flawlessly since many years ago in my Subaru "BumbleBeast" as you can read ~► Here. 

 

 

Those makes the Front Suspension Firmier & Sporty, but also I added Honda Accord Coil Springs in the Rear of my Subie, to gain the same control in the Back.

 

More info on the above posted Link.

 

 

Good Luck!

Kind Regards.

[kanurys]

Thanks Jeszek. I've followed your posts for some time now and and familar with the material. Phase two may be to do the rear springs in the future.

[kanurys]

Well, I mounted 1 strut this afternoon and put the wheel on the ground. The thing is so stiff that it won't compress even with me jumping on it, not that I'm that heavy . I can't determine if anything is binding or stuck, but it's totally topped out. The number of coils are the same as in ---->CZNY's picture<----, so I'm not sure what the deal is. Any ideas?

 

Edited April 14, 2013 by kanurys

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

Well, Despite that CZNY used the same coil spring that you used, he did cutted a small portion from one turn...

 

I Did not cutted anything, but I Obtained mine in a Junk Yard (Called here "Yonkers") so they were Used,

 

Maybe yours are Brand New and Stiffer... also I used another part Number, but seems to be the same fitment.

 

Kind Regards.

[kanurys]

Thanks Jeszek. Yes, the part we used is same fitment but different part. My springs were new, as far as I know. I cut mine to 13.5" free height and he cut his to 13", so there is that difference. It's about 1/4 turn on this spring. Mine are so stiff that I don't think this accounts for it.

 

Thanks for responding. We'll figure this out!

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

Maybe the Shock Absorber is Fully Extended and Due to the Car inclination (I Guess, because only one side is Mounted, so far...) It wont let it go Down... ¿  ?

 

Maybe it will work when you install the other side's one and let the car on Level on the Floor...

 

Good Luck!

Edited April 14, 2013 by Loyale 2.7 Turbo

[czny]

The bottom cut end is in the notch of the strut & the tophat is positioned with the "outside" outward, right?

Give the spring a wallop with a compothane BFH to seat it if not.

 

The springs were absolutely NIB. AND a matched pair.

 

I had to break mine in driving before the suspension settled a little. Do set the toe-in to 1/8" out, after driving & flat on the ground. 

Edited April 14, 2013 by czny

[kanurys]

Yep, the springs sit in the notch at the bottom and the tops are pointed out as marked. I'll throw the other side on and see if that helps. The only thing I can think of is the strut is bound at full extension and might get un-stuck when everything moves a little in symmetry.

[kanurys]

Here's what it looks like with everything installed and I drove it around a few hundred feet. I think it will settle a little but not as much as 2.5". I'm going to build a bumper and install it and see where that leaves us. Maybe put a bag of concrete on it so simulate the weight of a winch. I'm thinking that extra 0.5" I cut the springs at from CZNY's is pre-loading the struts just a little too much. It might get better with the add-ons. Though I'm experienced at being a mechanic, I haven't really dealt with springs too much. You guys have really been benefactors to me on this.

 

[kanurys]

OK, Lets try to spur some discussion, here:

 

Today, the struts are not topped out but maybe 1/2" to 3/4" from topped out. I set a 100 lb weight (bag of garage stuff) on the hood and the car sits down about 1/2". I think I'm going to have to pull the shocks and cut the springs some more to decrease the pre-load. Do you guys have any idea how much I should take off?

 

Is the Spring Rate column units lbs/inch in this sheet? Newtons/centimeter? http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/Universal_Coil_Springs.asp

CC856 has a stated spring rate of 146 (somethings/something).

 

If I cut the spring 1/2" shorter at free height would I be decreasing each side's pre-load by 73 (somethings/something). It sounds considerable for such a light vehicle.

Edited June 4, 2013 by kanurys

[czny]

The units in MOOGs rate chart are lbs/in deflection(compression). I had cut my cc856s to length to allow maximum travel matching the 4wd Monroe struts travel. Count the active coils(all coil turns minus the end two) times the wire diameter equals the stack height at coil bind.  Subract this from your install height on the struts to get travel. If you don't allow some leftover travel before coil bind you can imagine what you'll feel.

And shortened the snubbers inside the dust covers too.

 

Here's the cc856 specs for everyone else:

http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MOOG-CC856

[kanurys]

Thanks Bruce, I'll measure things up and see how it compares to what the travel should be. Then I'll have a better idea of how much to cut off. Does anyone have numbers on the compressed vs. extended length of a front shock? I did some searching and couldn't find it.

 

Edit - Nevermind. Found it on Monroe's site: http://catalog.monroe.com/catalogPart/monroePartSearchFromECatalog.do?partKey=626418&partNumber=71877&catalogKey=502&methodName=initialiseMonroe&catalogCode=monroe&locale=EN&loadStatus=ACTIVE

 

 

Compressed Length 14.000"

Extended Length 19.750" 

Edited April 15, 2013 by kanurys

[kanurys]

I calculate that I need to cut 1.513 coils off to get it to fit properly at full compression.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AulzhoggZfFGdE1KNDJQUUY4WmRobnRBWTJfaDMyRlE&usp=sharing

 

I might just cut 1 coil off and keep a little pre-load. I guess?

Edited April 16, 2013 by kanurys

[czny]

Just cut them to the same free length as I did - 13 inches. Don't want to have to find another set if you go too far. Small changes, one at a time.

 

While you're in there shorten the snubbers a little. Frees up some more travel for no cost.

[kanurys]

I guess that would be the diligent thing to do. I'll take 1/3 of a turn off of em. Yours looks high in front on your thread. Is that before they settled?

[czny]

Yeah, the front end did sit higher & it did take a little driving to get them to settle.

 

Now I've got a clunk to T/S in the rear - after I get the 73 Chevy CK20 going.

Edited April 16, 2013 by czny

[Ibreakstuff]

One thing to mention, sorry if you already know it. When you cut a spring the spring rate actually increases (stiffer). It looks like you have mega preload right now so i'm not saying its the wrong thing to do.. Just something to keep in mind if you start looking for softer springs later.

 

On my old 3door, I took a way taller but softer spring and cut it down several inches and ended up with something stiffer than stock with the preferred ride height.

 

Awesome job with the bushing btw.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Ibreakstuff

[kanurys]

Thanks. Bushing credit should really go to czny. I just did my version of the mod with factory sleeve and bolt. This may be upgraded if I decide to adjust the camber a little.

[kanurys]

And to clarify about springs since I've read so much misinformation on here:

The spring rate is not higher when you cut a spring down. It's exactly the same. Ignoring the issue of pre-load, a spring's rate is the same when its unloaded or on a shock. Variable rate springs are really just like having 2 different spring rates.

The force felt against a spring increases as it's compressed a certain distance. When you pack lots of coils into a space, the travel is distributed across each coil and therefore there is less change over that distance of compression in the force of the spring (not to be confused with the spring rate).

If you have an identical spring rate and fewer coils (even with less pre-load) in the same compression space, the force felt from the spring would ramp much faster than many coils. That is why it feels stiffer. It's due to the spring RATE remaining constant and each coil compressing further than the first example.

 

 

Wait, I guess that means it has a higher spring rate = force / displacement. So in my case, with cutting the springs down, it starts from a lower initial force (pre-load in the same space) and ramps up faster, as opposed to starting at a higher initial force and ramping up more slowly.

 

 

So with the variable rate springs, I've trimmed the stiffer part, making it respond more abruptly when active (as the lower rate part finishes compressing), while retaining the lower spring rate part for smoooooth action. I guess that's kind of intuitive. I just like talking through this stuff.

Edited April 16, 2013 by kanurys

[czny]

Nicely written, concise book for those interested in chassis mods:

How To Make Your Car Handle by Fred Puhn.

HP Books

http://www.amazon.com/How-Make-Your-Car-Handle/dp/0912656468/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366130676&sr=1-1&keywords=how+to+make+your+car+handle

 

Lots of info & formulas for leaf, coil & torsion bars. Plus much more.

 

Edit: it is rather dated, copyrighted 1981. But still.

Edited April 16, 2013 by czny

[kanurys]

I've paged through that book. It is very good. I've been a little busy with other stuff lately. I'll probably get the springs cut and back on this weekend. My tie-rods came! It's almost back on the road, er, off the road... you get what I mean...

 

I think the spring will be fully compressed before the bumper (snubber thingy) is used. I'm not sure what I'll do until I pull it apart again. In the mean time, I've Autocaded up a bumper design to fill that void.

[NorthWet]

Sorry, I don't wish to start an argument, but shortening a coil spring will increase its spring rate.  A coil spring is merely a torsion bar that is wound into a helical shape to fit in a smaller space.  When you halve the length you double the spring rate.  Progressive rate springs are usually wound with closer coil spacing for some coils so they bind early and cause the spring rate to increase.  (They can also be wound with varying coil radii, or with varying bar cross-section.)

 

Cheers!