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EJ25D heads, what work should be done? Possible EJ22D swap


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24 replies to this topic

#1 matt167

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 09:44 PM

The 'tested' 1996 EJ22E that I got for my '99 SUS turned out to have a seeping head gasket. Not much coolant was getting into the chamber, but it was enough to clean the spark plug and get me to pull the cylinder heads.. Now I'm at a crossroads. I'm considering an EJ22D conversion using the 25D heads and intake from the car. I know it works and I would be able to keep my original Y pipe but I don't know the 'cost' to having the heads done. The 2.2L heads are good. I'v checked them for cracks. If they need cut, I could do the old sand paper on a pane of glass trick for free, or it would be $40 at Napa but the machinist there goes on his own schedule nowadays, so who knows when I could get them back..

 

Are there any gotcha's with the 25D heads?  The 2.5L runs like a pile of crap because it is ingesting so much coolant into 1 cylinder that it has a consistent miss once it's warm. Oil is clean, and the coolant was actually pretty clean also, so it has to be all going thru the cylinders, so I'm afraid of bent valves.. How much power does the EJ22D swap aid over a normal EJ22E? Most of my driving is country back roads if that makes a difference. Low end is where I'd like any gains to be. I know the 22E swap drops 30hp from the 25D motor


Edited by matt167, 28 April 2013 - 09:44 PM.


#2 Fairtax4me

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 10:36 PM

Gasket slap the 2.2 and put it back in the car. Simple and reliable.
The 2.2 has better low end torque anyway, but put a set of delta torque grind cams in it and it'll pull harder than the 2.5 up to ~4000 rpm. Not a huge huge gain from the cams but the seat of your pants will be able to tell.

#3 matt167

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 12:24 PM

That's what I was thinking.. Thought the ability to Turbo would be cool too, but thinking about that, I could only put enough boost on it for the DCR to match the original 9.5:1 SCR without tuning, so it is a moot point. Turbo just to have a turbo


Edited by matt167, 29 April 2013 - 12:25 PM.


#4 grossgary

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 12:46 PM

2.5 heads are annoying, the bucket/shim debacle, plastic cams, more expensive timing belt...for no practical benefit, at least not for me.

pretty sure that would be really low compression, they have compression calculators on NASIOC for swapping heads if you want to figure it out.

 

the only problem with the 2.2 is that if the headgasket is leaking then it was likely overheated.  EJ22's don't have headgasket issues so most of them with headgasket issues were overheated which caused the gasket to blow.

 

check the timing belt covers and other plastic bits, any signs of deformation or melting suggests it was overheated really bad.  saw one last year bought for an EJ25 swap like that...blown headgaskets and slightly melted timing covers, rod bearings are now knocking. it's a USMB member from WV, he rarely posts but i see and talk to him often.


Edited by grossgary, 29 April 2013 - 12:51 PM.


#5 matt167

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 02:25 PM

Timing covers are in great shape except for 1 had a thread insert busted out of it from a recent timing belt change ( doubt belt/ idlers and water pump had 10k miles on them, but I changed out to new parts anyway. ) No melting on any plastic or other visible signs of damage and they all have 1996 date codes/ clocks so they have not been replaced. Originally I just epoxied a nut into the timing cover and had it back togther, until I started pulling plugs. I really should have done that first but I found nothing else alarming.. Cylinder really does not show water intrusion and the engine is clean inside and out. Piston on questionable cylinder is not steam cleaned as I would have expected, it is uniform with the other 3, and the chamber/ valves on the head are uniform. I really think it was just weeping a bit. Probably quite a few short trips/ heat cycles.


Edited by matt167, 29 April 2013 - 02:35 PM.


#6 matt167

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:42 PM

Can I use the EJ25D wiring harness? I have both. I like the connector for the coil on the EJ25D being it's not a pigtailed coil and the connector is easier to remove, but I also broke the clip on the coolant sensor connector that sits directly under the throttle body on the EJ22 harness. If I can't, it's no big deal



#7 torxxx

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:05 AM

you would have to use your 2.2 harness unless u want to pull a dash.

 

Stick with the 2.2L.    I have a 2.5L, they arent worth the hassle.  HG issues, more prone to bearing failure.   a 2.2 will run to 350k miles



#8 86BRATMAN

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:33 AM

If you are referring to the ej25 engine harness, you can use it.  Just swap it all over to the ej22 and plug it in.



#9 matt167

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:41 PM

Hit a snag using the EJ25D harness but it is a simple fix and I think a better solution to running the EJ22E harness.. The problem with the harness is the EJ25's ignition coil does not fit the bolt spacing on the EJ22 Intake, also the coil plugs are HEI type and the EJ22 coil plugs are the old style plug type. AND also, the wiring connectors are different. The other issue with the EJ25D harness is actually a good thing that I cought. The EJ22 has no purge control solenoid ( EJ25D does ), it simply vents the Evap lines into a vac port after going thru the canister that would have been on the passanger side. I found it by having an extra connector with nothing there that did not seem right. I checked the EJ22 harness for the connector just to be sure.. So the whole loop the 2 evap lines togther can be bypassed when using the 25D harness. The large evap line runs from the connections on the driver side all the way to the passanger side front. On the EJ25D intake, the line terminates directly into the purge solenoid and then a small hose runs from the solenoid to the top of the intake. On the EJ22 intake there is a spot to place the purge solenoid and there are 2 plugged ports, one on the back of the intake and 1 on the top just as it is on the EJ25D intake.. The simple solution is to run a hose from the front of the motor back to the purge solenoid and then vent it into the intake plenum just like the EJ25D. The little metal Evap line can be cut back and discarded as it is not needed

 

In the end, the only real 'mod' to make it all work is swapping the ignition coil connectors from the EJ22E harness over to the EJ25D harness and the colors match


Edited by matt167, 11 May 2013 - 07:42 PM.


#10 Fairtax4me

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:03 PM

All of these engines had the evap purge solenoid in the same place under the number 3 intake runner. I think someone must have snagged the one off your 2.2 manifold. It should have been there otherwise. I've never seen a 2.2 that didn't have it.
The placement of the evap canister was different on some but that just meant routing the hoses a bit differently. All the fun of an engine swap, figuring out how to make it all work.
Now the big question, does it run?

#11 matt167

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:00 AM

Nope. It's not there and I checked the harness that I pulled off of it does not have the connector or obviously cut wires. I did not peel back or open any of the loom to check for cut wires but it looks like it has never been tampered with. Not sure why or if my engine was one of a few that did not get a purge solenoid. Where the solenoid goes under the #3 runner is a small tab with a bolt in it and both ports are plugged with original looking plugs. I'll take a pic when I go down.. Motor's actually still on the stand tho the car is ready and the EJ25D was removed a few days ago..  I also figured out while pulling the engine in my car that the torque converter bolts are accessable from below. It's a little tight but a socket and a swivle will go right up there. I'm putting the engine in complete because of the found access.


Edited by matt167, 12 May 2013 - 08:01 AM.


#12 matt167

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:17 PM

OK, I forgot my camera but there is a connector that was obviously unused on the EJ22 harness. Missed it last time. A blue connector but it did not match the EJ25D's purge solenoid... In any case, the Evap system is installed identical to the EJ25D routing. I just need to get a new vac line to connect to the purge solenoid. Yesterday I found the line I bought from carquest was too short ( my fault, I told them 1' length ) and all the local parts houses were closed at that time. I decided to run to Harbor Freight to get a new impact wrench as the old 1 has no power anymore. I also figured that I could go to the Advance Auto right next door to get some vac line. I even had the too short length hose with me when I walked into Advance. the guy got some ( he had arleady cut it ) which looked too big to me but he said it was right.. Well today I found out it's one size too big, and a clamp works on the pipe because it's out in the open but it's too tight of a fit on the purge solenoid.. So engine install has to wait because I'm not going to fight with it in the car.. Changing the throttle body over also as the 25D's is better



#13 CLSLegacy

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:23 AM

I have a 96 Legacy with the head-gasket-blowing 2.5L DOHC.I'm interested in replacing it with a 2.2L SOHC like my other two Legacys have. Should any 95-99 work without major mods? Does the transplant have to come from an auto-trans donor? Other than the usual work to swap like-for-like engine, what should I expect to change to the 2.2L? BTW, I live in an emission inspection zone, so the OBD-II has to be happy.



#14 86BRATMAN

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:36 AM

95-98 ej22 with egr will be what you are looking for.  99 ej22's are completely different and not the best choice for this swap. You do not have to use one from an automatic car, but they are the most likely to have egr, there is a m ethod to get around the egr issue and it is posted on the site as well.  Use the flex plate off your ej25, and if you get a 96-98 you will need the exhaust manifold from the donor car.  You are not limited to legacies, the impreza uses the same engine as well.



#15 matt167

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 10:07 AM

I'v had the '96 EGR EJ22 since early April. Just got it in the car last week. New head gaskets, timing belt+ idlers and new hydraulic tensioner, Water pump and OEM thermostat, plugs, new ignition coil, new knock sensor, new vac/ PCV hoses, new seperator plate and I swapped the flex plate. I used the EJ25D harness, swapped the ignition coil connector with the EJ22 connector. Used the purge solenoid from the EJ25D as the EJ22 did not have one... Also have 2 new Bosch O2 sensors and 2 new catalytic converters because the EJ25 had a bad missfire when hot.. Also got a brand new Y pipe on it.

 

I was going to use the EJ25D heads on the EJ22 block but decided not to...


Edited by matt167, 21 May 2013 - 10:10 AM.


#16 CLSLegacy

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 01:18 PM

I got a 2.2L with EGR out of a '96 Legacy sedan at the junkyard yesterday and hope to start swapping it into my '96 wagon this weekend. I got the transmission, too, figuring it would be easier, and with 3 Subarus already, I'll eventually use the one that comes out. I'll let you know how it goes and what troubles I have along the way. The 2.2's oil pan got damaged, and I see that the 2.2 and 2.5 use different oil pans, even though the gasket is the same and they fit into the car the same way, or do they?



#17 grossgary

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 02:02 PM

you can swap oil pans, they're different but interchangeable unless i'm just forgetting something.

 

96 EJ22 is a single port head and you'll need a single port exhaust manifold as the Ej25 is dual port (1995 EJ22's havedual port exhausts, but not 1996+).

 

your vehicle has a 4.44 final drive ratio (i think all EJ25 auto's have 4.44), which no EJ22's have so if you install the EJ22 transmission you'll have mismatched final drive ratios and binding in your drivetrain. 

you need to also swap the rear differential to match final drive ratios if the transmission final drives are different.

 

or just keep the EJ25 transmission - all the transmissions are the same essentially besides the final drive ratios.  they're interchangeable because they're basically identical.

 

if you do install the Ej22 trans you can even leave it all bolted up and install it as an assembly with the engine bolted to the trans.  high angle and all so leave plenty of room, but doable and saves a ton of work separating and reattaching.  though you may want to replace the rear separator plate anyway with a metal one while it's out.



#18 matt167

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:18 PM

Pans should swap no issue, tho the EJ25D pan is shaped differently.. I would keep the trans in the car and just swap the engine unless it's going bad. you need to swap the flexplates and you should at least reseal the seperator plate at least.. When I did mine I elected to buy the metal replacement as it's inexpensive, but I also did a lot more than was actually required as preventative maintenance.

 

My advice is when you go to pull the torque converter bolts just remove the intake.. When you put the EJ22 in, you can get a 1/4" ratchet from Harbor Freight that has a pivoting head and that will allow just enough clearance to put the bolts back in with the EJ22 intake in place.



#19 CLSLegacy

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 08:05 AM

I had thought about the exhaust manifold, but not transaxle-rear differential issue. I'm so glad you thought to mention it. Since I have a lift, I was thinking about raising the car a couple of feet, putting supports under the front engine and rear transaxle crossmembers, and then raise the car off of the engine/trans/rack/etc subassembly, similar to how it's put together at the factory (and how we did it on our VW Bugs). If I need to keep the old tranny, I might as well just pull the engine from the top with my crane. So I use the flexplate and everything behind it from the existing transmission? BTW, the donor engine has 136K (assuming it was original to the donor car), but I might-as-well replace the oil separator plate? how about the rear main seal? @grossgary - what part of West-by-God do you hail from?



#20 matt167

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 08:37 PM

The rear mains rarely leak so if it isn't leaking, don't touch it.. The Separator plate is  likely leaking. You can reseal it with Permatex Ultra Grey or a couple others listed as equivalents to the factory sealant. All material listings are in the Factory service manuals which can be had online easy... No real need to replace the separator with the metal one unless you break the old one, but they are not expensive.. As for the trans, if you use the original trans, just the flexplate is all that is needed from the EJ25.. If you do just the engine, you do not even need to remove the hood. It can be tied up vertical with no damage. Takes about 5 mins to remove the engine once you've got all the bolts out, so even someone holding the hood up won't get frustrated.



#21 CLSLegacy

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:40 PM

Matt and Gary - thanks for your help! I got a single-port exhaust manifold from eBay. I prepped the junkyard 2.2 by R+R'ing the separator plate with UltraGrey, removing exterior gunk with brake cleaner, replacing the sparkplugs and valve cover gaskets, checking the condition of the timing belt and gears, R+R'ng the two alignment pins, moving the 2.5 flexplate over. Pulling the old and dropping in the new engine went easier than expected. Once I had the engine/transmission bolted together, I removed the oilpan that was damaged at the junkyard, which gave me easy access to the flexplate/torque converter bolts. I installed the oilpan from the 2.5 with more UltraGrey and a FelPro gasket. All hoses and electrical connections worked the same way (including the EVAP can), the only difference is the power steering lines are shaped differently, so the brackets that secured them to the DOHC heads are in the wrong place for the SOHC heads. They still function, but if it bothers me later, I'll strip some SOHC hoses next time I'm at the junkyard. I took it out on the road for an hour or so the other night including getting up to 75+ on the highway with no issues, no CEL, just a small oil leak that looks like its from the passenger side camshaft seal, so I'm gonna replace the front seals on both cams and the crank, and probably replace the timing belt.

 

How can I decipher transmission ID#s to tell what the one I got at the junkyard is compatible with?



#22 Fairtax4me

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:53 PM

You made a mistake putting RTV and gasket on the oil pan. It's going to leak.
The factory seals the pan with a form of RTV which works very well by itself. Ultra grey works fine as a substitute. There is no need for a rubber gasket, but if one is used it must be used alone with no sealer of any kind. Combining RTV plus a gasket is a sure-fire recipe for leaks.

What year and model did you get the trans from?

Edited by Fairtax4me, 21 June 2013 - 01:55 PM.


#23 CLSLegacy

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:44 PM

The donor car was a '96 Legacy Sedan, VIN 4S3BD4354T7212603. The recipient car is a '96 Legacy GT Wagon, VIN 4S3BK6758T317XXX. I also have two '93 Legacy Wagons, one with auto-tranny, the other a 5-speed. I don't have the transmission ID's in front of me, but can post them later.



#24 CLSLegacy

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:10 PM

Again the donor car was a '96 Legacy Sedan, 2.2L, AWD, trans ID: TZ 102 ZABAA-CL

The recipient car is a '96 Legacy Wagon, 2.5L->2.2L, AWD, trans ID: TZ 102 Z2AAA-CG

I also have an auto-trans '93 Legacy Wagon, 2.2L, AWD, trans ID: TZ 102 ZA2AA-MH

And just bought an auto '95 Legacy Sedan, 2.2L, 2WD, trans ID: TA 102 AAAAA-C6

And of course my '93 Legacy Wagon 5-speed.

I'm speculating that the 2nd and 6th digit are the same, with A=2WD, and Z=AWD, other than that, the other digits may specify gear ratios. Would the donor car tranny fit anything else I have, or should I sell it as scrap?



#25 CLSLegacy

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:54 PM

Matt and Gary - thanks again. Just a follow up after a month on the road. I replaced the cam and crank seals (wish I had done it when I had the engine out of the car) which fixed the oil leak. It's still running great, no CEL, etc. Thanks for the encouragement!






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