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looking for reliable 2.5 to 2.2 swap info


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38 replies to this topic

#1 thealleyboy

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 09:40 AM

Hey guys...trying to get up to speed on New Gen engine compatibility....my EA82's are slowly disintegrating, and the new ones are kinda nice too...  

 

Read several posts including those in the archived section. Not all the info is consistant, and some of it is conflicting. Can anyone point me to a definitive write-up on this topic?

 

Specifically, I am looking to revive a 99 Forrester A/T with a blown 2.5. I have a good 97 Imprez 2.2 available, but am not ruling out other versions of the 2.2.

 

I'd rather stay away from 2.5's due to high cost, and poor reputation.

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated,  thanks John



#2 Gloyale

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 10:17 AM

97 2.2 would work in the 99 forrester with a few notables.

 

Swap throttle body.  Might need a block off of the IAC hole on the 2.5 TB.

 

Swap wiring harness from EJ25 intake onto EJ22 intake.  Injector pigtails will need swapped to fit 2.2 injectors.

 

IAC on 2.2 will need plugged.

 

Might need to swap Crank and Cam gears from 2.5 onto 2.2

 

This setup will run, but likely might have a CEL, and IAC function will not work.....takes a few minutes to warm up in the morning.



#3 ivans imports

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 10:26 AM

i whould use the 2.2 short block with the 2.5 heads works very well and no check engine light



#4 grossgary

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:31 AM

hey good to see you again.

 

there's not so much conflicting information as there are so many different ways and combinations.  heads, blocks, phase I, phase II, EGR or not, exhaust ports...etc.  most of it depends on you, what you're wanting or willing to do.

 

you'll have to let us know what exactly you have - which you've told us except that you haven't mentioned if your 97 has EGR or not (the 99 most certainly will i believe, most EJ25's do, EJ22's are hit or miss and no 100% way to tell without looking.  and how much work you want to...or not to...do.

 

you're doing the most difficult EJ swap there is because a 99 Forester is a Phase II EJ25 and the EJ22 is a Phase I so electronics and such are not compatible.

yours is not an easy swap - so you can ignore all the "plug and play" options.  if it was a 1998 forester then it would be plug and play, the Ej22 would plug right into the EJ25...not so with 99's.

 

as ivans said the simplest route is to swap the EJ22 block into the EJ25 vehicle - then everything is simple and no work arounds needed.  of course EJ25 heads suck but do it right and you won't have to touch them again for 100,000 miles hopefully.

 

or follow Gloyale's lead on actually swapping in the EJ22.  if you swap the entire 97 you'll also need the exhaust manifold as they are single ports and if it's not EGR and the EJ25 does have EGR - then you'll have a check engine light until you work around that code, which is possible, someone just figured out a slick and simple trick a couple weeks ago finally after all these years.

 

 

 

 

Hey guys...trying to get up to speed on New Gen engine compatibility....my EA82's are slowly disintegrating, and the new ones are kinda nice too...  

 

Read several posts including those in the archived section. Not all the info is consistant, and some of it is conflicting. Can anyone point me to a definitive write-up on this topic?

 

Specifically, I am looking to revive a 99 Forrester A/T with a blown 2.5. I have a good 97 Imprez 2.2 available, but am not ruling out other versions of the 2.2.

 

I'd rather stay away from 2.5's due to high cost, and poor reputation.

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated,  thanks John


Edited by grossgary, 01 May 2013 - 11:33 AM.


#5 thealleyboy

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:39 AM

GL - sounds like the 97 isn't the best choice.  Can you think of a better version of the 2.2 for the 99 Forrester? Which one would you use if you didn't already have a donor?

 

Ivan - I've seen this mentioned before. Is it a matter of using the stock 2.5 heads for a given car, with any 2.2?  Or are there certain 2.2's that work better with 2.5 heads? 

 

I'm guessing that using 1999 2.5 heads of the same production run would eliminate the workarounds GLoyale talks about...  

 

thanks, John  



#6 chaz345

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 12:34 PM

Couldn't he get around the CEL problem by bringing the computer from the donor vehicle?



#7 thealleyboy

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 02:09 PM

Hey Gary, appreciate the specific details about the 99 Forrester.

 

Judging by what you said, it sounds like all 2.2's will have the wiring issues in the 99 platform. I had read somewhere else that the 2.2's were "plug and play" compatible with 2.5's as long as they were the same phase. If this were correct, then a 99 2.2 would concievabley work as a direct replacement. 

 

Chaz, ECU's are another area where there is a lot of conflicting info. I have taked to people that have done it successfully both ways (using the orig and swapping in the donor).

 

Same thing with swapping the entire intake systems.

 

My experience with the older models was to keep the original intake, while using the donor ECU. Never had any problem doing it this way.

 

John



#8 johnceggleston

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 03:01 PM

the ECUs need to match the wiring in the car.

for some years this is not a big deal, there were no real changes in the ECUs.

but in other years there were changes and the chassis wiring and the ECU need to match..

in subarus, swapping the ECU does not help unless you also swap the wiring harness in the car.

 

the only ej22s that will swap easily in to the 99 forester are the 99 - 00.

and there are not a lot of those.

another option for a replacement engine is to find a 96 - 04 ej25 short block from an engine with a busted timing belt.

this means the engine was running when the belt failed and it probably was not overheating or knocking.

swap in your heads and intake and go.

 

 

the 00 - 02 ej25 is a non-EGR engine.

the 03 - 04 ej25 is an EGR engine.

 

if the 99 forester is a SOHC engine it MAY NOT have egr, but you need to double check.



#9 grossgary

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 05:53 AM

correct John - a 1999-2001 EJ22 (from any legacy or impreza) will be a direct and easy swap with the following in mind: 

 

1.  you need the exhaust manifold as those year EJ22's have single port exhaust and the forester will have a dual port manifold.  they easily interchange

2.  sometimes the crank and cam sprockets have different trigger marks on the back.  you can hope it works and swap later, swap now, or check and count/compare them and see if they need swapped. since it's nearing 15 years old and an interference engine i'd be installing an ebay timing belt kit anyway so i'd just do it now with that.

 

*** I have two 99 Ej22's - both of them do not have EGR valves so if your forester does have EGR you'll have to do a work around to keep the CEL off.  it's very easy though and was recently posted.  car will drive just fine so if you live in an area, like my state, that it doesnt' matter then you can ignore the CEL.

 

flywheel/flexplate moves from the EJ25 to the EJ22.   EJ22's have easily adjustable valves so you can hit those before installing it.

 

replace the rear seperator plate with metal stamped variety.  they are prone to crack/leaking.  if it's meal already then just reseal it.

 

there was a $600 99 EJ22 in Ohio yesterday....www.car-parts.com

 

 

Couldn't he get around the CEL problem by bringing the computer from the donor vehicle?

no.  that's not the answer here. the body side harness wouldn't be compatible.


Edited by grossgary, 02 May 2013 - 05:54 AM.


#10 thealleyboy

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:38 AM

Good stuff guys!!

 

Based on what I'm hearing, I think I'll try to find a 99-01 EJ22 for the 99 Forrester, and save my 97 2.2 for another project. Appreciate all the great info, and I'll continue posting as I work thru this conversion...John 



#11 johnceggleston

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:08 PM

check this out, in PA.

 

http://www.subaruout...ar-partout.html

 

FS (pa) 4 car partout
 
99 Legacy brighton 106k auto (white)
2.2 sohc motor is good , trans has hesitation going into drive when cold but shifts fine

Edited by johnceggleston, 02 May 2013 - 02:09 PM.


#12 thealleyboy

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:14 PM

In my backyard...thanks for the link JCG!!



#13 grossgary

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 03:05 PM

nice hit.

 

In my backyard...thanks for the link JCG!!

 

let me know what he wants for those 99 and 01 EJ22's, whichever one you don't get.



#14 thealleyboy

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:15 PM

Gary, Forrester deal went south, so they are all up for grabs. Actually got a line on another good one in OH. PM if you want to go after it...I'll run out there with you if you want...John 



#15 grossgary

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:11 PM

i ended up with a good one this weekend, thanks.



#16 thealleyboy

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 07:32 PM

Hey Guys:

 

The 99 Forrester deal discussed above fell apart. A handshake doesn't mean much these days. Life in the big city I suppose...

 

I'm now onto a 2000 Legacy A/t with a blown 2.5. From what I gather, it has not overheated, so the 2.5 heads could conceivably be salvageble.  I'm looking at re-purposing my 97 2.2 (5 speed) as well as other 2.2 options.  A straight swap would be ideal, but I'm feeling ambitious enough to try to build something off a 2.2 block, and reconditioing the exisisting 2.5 heads. 

 

Besides my 97 2.2, I know of I know of at least 2 intact 99 2.2's available in my area. Thats not considering other 2.2's from other years that could  serve as a platform for the 2.5 heads. I know my 97 2.2 is rock solid, and wouldn't mind holding it back for a more appropriate project.

 

I'm open to any of these options right now, and would appreciate your feedback.  Again, I'm new to the new gens, and don't know about all the ins and outs of the 2000 Legacy Outbacks. ... thanksJohn 



#17 Prwa101

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:04 PM

I just did this swap the last two days with GD. AND NO CEL. you need to fallow the diagram on the hood so the vacume lines are right.

2.2 long block, 2.2 intake, 2.5 intake harness, which ever coil pack will fit on the 2.2 intake, may need to solder diffrent connector.

If the lines are hooked up right there will be no cel. It's hard to explain how GD did it, but the canister isn't there after the swap, larger line goes to the little nipple on the intake for vacume. And the smaller one is not used.

Or just put a used 251 back in what ever you get, it's a miss conception that the 25's are bad. It's the 25D that's prone to blowing head gaskets. My 251 in my 00 forester has 250k and runs strong.
You can find more info if you search
Good luck

-Prwa

Edited by Prwa101, 09 May 2013 - 11:07 PM.


#18 thealleyboy

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:38 AM

Thanks for the info PR!! 

 

Do you happen to know which version of the 2.2 he used?  I'm wondering if my 2.2 (97 5-speed) will have the same compatibility problems for the 2000 Outback as with the 1999 Forrester {discussed above}.  I'm not opposed to getting a 99 2.2 if it is a better fit. 

 

As far as 2.5's, they are in big demand in my area (OH) and go for bookoo $$. 2.2's are much easier to find for bottom-feeder prices.  I know of some stock 2.5's - and also older rebuilt ones that have help up well.  Seems to be the gasket itself rather than a design flaw as commonly believed. 

 

In any case, it is a cost issue for me to go with a 2.2 SB instead of chasing down an overpriced 2.5.    thanks, John  



#19 johnceggleston

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:03 AM

Do you happen to know which version of the 2.2 he used?  I'm wondering
if my 2.2 (97 5-speed) will have the same compatibility problems for the
2000 Outback as with the 1999 Forrester {discussed above}.  I'm not
opposed to getting a 99 2.2 if it is a better fit.

yes, the same complications as the 99 forester regarding engine swap.

 

your 97 ej22, 2.2L engine is a perfect fit for 95 - 98 ej22s, or 96 - 98 ej25 (plus the 99 outback).

it is not a swap candidate for 00 plus cars, (or 99 forester.)



#20 grossgary

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 09:07 AM

Alleyboy - All Phase II EJ25's will offer the same complications mentioned above for the 99 Forester.

 

*** 2000 and up Legacy and Outbacks and 99 and up Forester and Impreza RS ***

Print that out or save it on your computer - if the vehicle is any of the above then you'll have the EJ25 swap complications mentioned earlier.

 

For a 2000 Legacy bolt the EJ25 heads to your EJ22 or get a 99+ EJ22, or 2000-2004 EJ25.


Heads bolted to your known good Ej22 sounds like a good option if you want a lot of miles out of it.



#21 Prwa101

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:08 AM

Thanks for the info PR!!

Do you happen to know which version of the 2.2 he used? I'm wondering if my 2.2 (97 5-speed) will have the same compatibility problems for the 2000 Outback as with the 1999 Forrester {discussed above}. I'm not opposed to getting a 99 2.2 if it is a better fit.

As far as 2.5's, they are in big demand in my area (OH) and go for bookoo $$. 2.2's are much easier to find for bottom-feeder prices. I know of some stock 2.5's - and also older rebuilt ones that have help up well. Seems to be the gasket itself rather than a design flaw as commonly believed.

In any case, it is a cost issue for me to go with a 2.2 SB instead of chasing down an overpriced 2.5. thanks, John

We used a 97 JDM 22 import. It's was beautiful in side never seen one so clean, I would have eaten dinner of the valve covers it was so clean.. It was a phase 2. If there's a will there way.

Makes sence 25's are harder to find.

Over all it was an easy swap, I was really surprised how fast it went.

Edited by Prwa101, 10 May 2013 - 10:10 AM.


#22 thealleyboy

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:08 AM

Got it!!  I'll do better than save it on my computer - I'll paste it on my garage wall. Thanks again for the detailed explanation...John



#23 ivans imports

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:58 AM

watch for meatal debrie inside the rocker shaft tubes like to hide there is difacult to clean out



#24 thealleyboy

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 12:16 AM

Ok boys... after all the dust has settled looks like AB is going to be building up an 03 Legacy/Outback wagon.  i have also secured a 99 2.2 that runs,  so I think I got enuff to resources work with.

 

The 03 Outback has apparently had an oil failure, which seems odd but it's the only thing that makes any sense.  It is a classic engine knock, with all other variables working as they should. I have to assume that the heads are good. No signs of overheating. No timing belt disaster. Just a motor with 150k that is sounding sick.

 

My thinking is to build up the known 99 2.2, and giving the existing 03  2.5 heads some attention. I have got some local resources that I trust with saving those heads if they aren't shot.  If all goes as plannned, I should have a solid 99 SB, and a pair of reconditioned 03 heads to bolt onto that block.

 

I guess my question is about putting it all together. Of course I will do all the normal maintenace items to freshen up  the SB. I have not yet sourced head gaskets for the EJ series, but would like to use the best replacements available {whatever they may be}.  Same with tensioners, pulleys, seals and pumps.  I always run the timing belts naked, soi would prefer to use any sealed wear items that may be  available.

 

Appreciate any advice on the 99 2.2 to 03 2.5 conversion, and also recommendations on the head gaskets and other bolt on components.. thanks, John



#25 grossgary

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:10 AM

make sure the noise isn't piston slap or timing tensioner related - they literally sound like knocking.

piston slap noise lessens as the motor warms up.

timing tensioner you can see it slapping with the motor running and timing cover off.

 

the Phase II EJ22 is in very low quantity so there's not much consensus on those.  but in general they don't have headgasket issues so I'd use the Subaru gasket.

 

the heads will be fine, EJ25 non-turbo heads don't really have any issues. the most likely would be cam bearing related but i've never heard of anyone checking that.

you can resurface them yourself as posted in the DIY thread here, it's fantastic.

 

i use the ebay timing belt kits.  if i want a better product i go with theimportexperts kits.  timing belt, pulleys, tensioner.  if you can get an old style tensioner bracket you can use the old style tensioner which is more reliable...but it's sort of a wash if you're buying a new tensioner either way anyway - unless you're planning on 200,000+ miles out of this thing.

 

i also leave the covers off for older gen and newer gen - but i keep them on the motors like yours because they're interference and 105k change interval instead of 60k.  my exposed timing belts do cause the pulleys to rust which hasn't been an issue and it's not on the riding surface of the belt, but since newer stuff is easy to keep timing covers for it's been easy to keep them. i don't put all the timing cover bolts in and use zip ties in the exposed holes and they're easily removed.






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