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Ea81 timing marks


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#1 91 subaru

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:35 PM

I have a 1981 dl 1.8l 4speed manual. Its running rough, has a miss on the #2 cylinder, has a back fire(exhaust) im trying to rule out a timing issue. So i pull the little cover on the transmission expecting to see some sort of timing marks. I have spun the engine over a million times all i see is two holes looked like they were drilled in. They are about 4 inches apart. Am i missing something?

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#2 ferox

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:26 PM

I have a 1981 dl 1.8l 4speed manual. Its running rough, has a miss on the #2 cylinder, has a back fire(exhaust) im trying to rule out a timing issue. So i pull the little cover on the transmission expecting to see some sort of timing marks. I have spun the engine over a million times all i see is two holes looked like they were drilled in. They are about 4 inches apart. Am i missing something?

Yes, there are lines like on a ruler embossed in the flywheel that show degrees before top dead center BTDC.  Most likely there is enough rust on your flywheel that they have filled in and are not visible.  Maybe take a scotchbrite pad or something and kind of scrub the visible portion of the flywheel as your rotate it around TDC on the number one cylinder.  They'll show up eventually.  I like to clean up the marks really good and highlight the #8 BTDC mark with white paint as well as the reference marker arrow on the bellhousing...makes setting the timing a breeze and takes out any guesswork.



#3 91 subaru

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:37 PM

I started with a scotchbrite pad but i didnt roll it around to tdc(didnt even think about it) then i decided to drive around to the neighbors house to help play with his demo derby car. Tomorow ill roll the motor to tdc and hit it again with the scotchbrite and see what i can find. Thanks for the imput. This car has been really drivin me crazy! Oh also when the cooling fans(electric) kick on the idle drops and the car dies. Im guessing thats due to the timing being off also?

#4 rdweninger

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:03 AM

Dude, that's alot of rust on your flywheel.
I have actually used an electric drill with a wire brush attachment small enough to fit thru the timing hole (halfway at least). Start the motor and wire brush away! Stop the motor. Rotate the crank and you should now see the timing marks as your rotor approaches the #1 plug wire.
Then clean up the marks with steel wool or emery cloth. Clean and paint white as stated in prior post.
If it's missing on #2, then maybe replace cap, rotor, plug wires, spark plugs. Use NGK ONLY.
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#5 91 subaru

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:37 AM

As far as the miss i have new cap, rotor, ngk plugs, 8mm plug wires. I pulled the #2 plug out and its like its never been fired. Wet with fuel smell. Still looks brand new

#6 rdweninger

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 01:59 PM

Check the resistance of the #2 plug wire. Should be close to zero.
Maybe a bad plug. I have seen plugs (not NGK) with broken ceramics. Do you have an extra one?
I had a mechanic work on my Subie a few years ago. After he was done replacing the HG's, he said it didn't run TOO bad... for an EA82! Well, I drove it a few miles and quickly figured out it was only running on 3 cylinders. The #2 plug wire was not connected correctly. Albiet, it is tucked in there and somewhat difficult to check. But check it anyway.
Other than that, the distributor pickups could be faulty... but never heard of it only affecting one cylinder.
How's the compression in #2 cylinder?

#7 djellum

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:33 PM

the poping exhaust is called an after fire, its generally not a timing issue, though Im sure its related to your misfire.  if you have a dead cylinder then it could allow fuel and air into the exhaust, which is then ignited and boom.

 

try hooking up a vacuum gauge and running the car.  you can look up how to read it and see if theres a vacuum leak or stuck valve or something that might be killing that cylinder.  check the timing too, but I doubt it will lead to the problem.

 

I just did a tune up on mine and it runs much better.  Id probably try swapping wires or plugs (meaning change both wire and plug from #1 to #2) to see if the miss changes cylinders.  you could do the same with the cap, rotate it 180 and redo the plug wire to get the firing order right and see if the miss moves.  or you can just replace them and see, if its close to time anyway.



#8 91 subaru

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:39 PM

Ill get the timing all set tomorrow and play around with things. My son had a ball game tonight so i didnt get out to it. Tomorrow if i figure things out ill report back. Thanks for the knowledge guys.

#9 91 subaru

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:33 AM

Ill get the timing all set tomorrow and play around with things. My son had a ball game tonight so i didnt get out to it. Tomorrow if i figure things out ill report back. Thanks for the knowledge guys.

#10 91 subaru

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:51 PM

So i ran the motor today while holding a piece of scotchbrite pad on the flywheel. I found the timing marks, but when i pulled the number one cylinder plug out and turned the motor over until air started to push out of the plug hole the marks were nowhere close to lining up. I couldnt even see them anymore. The rotor does line up with the # 1 plug wire posistion though. What would cause the timing marks to be off so far from tdc and how can i get them to line back up?

#11 mikaleda

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:46 PM

So i ran the motor today while holding a piece of scotchbrite pad on the flywheel. I found the timing marks, but when i pulled the number one cylinder plug out and turned the motor over until air started to push out of the plug hole the marks were nowhere close to lining up. I couldnt even see them anymore. The rotor does line up with the # 1 plug wire posistion though. What would cause the timing marks to be off so far from tdc and how can i get them to line back up?

So your saying you getting comperssion on #1 cylinder And you can't see the marks at all, but when you can see the rotor pointing at #1 the marks are visible?
The timing should be set a 8degrees BTDC or before top dead center, so at 8 degree mark the rotor should be pointing to the #1 wire and you should be starting the compression stroke just before that lines up IIRC

Edited by mikaleda, 10 May 2013 - 03:46 PM.


#12 ferox

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:49 PM

Your flywheel must be clocked wrong.  When the clutch was changed last, the flywheel was probably removed and reinstalled with the timing marks in the wrong location.  You could do one of two things:

 

1)  the best option is to remove the flywheel and install it correctly.

 

2) the second option is to try to transfer the timing marks to the place where the flywheel currently sits at #1 TDC.  You can either use a punch or some paint or other method of your choosing.  Obviously this approach is less accurate.

 

I would also recommend adjusting your valve lash if you don't have a hydro-lifter engine.



#13 91 subaru

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:55 PM

So your saying you getting comperssion on #1 cylinder And you can't see the marks at all, but when you can see the rotor pointing at #1 the marks are visible?
The timing should be set a 8degrees BTDC or before top dead center, so at 8 degree mark the rotor should be pointing to the #1 wire and you should be starting the compression stroke just before that lines up IIRC

When i feel compression on the number one cylinder the marks are no longer visible but the rotor is pointing at the number one plug wire. I think ferox hit it one the head. Ill redo the flywheel and see what happens

#14 mikaleda

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:59 PM

When i feel compression on the number one cylinder the marks are no longer visible but the rotor is pointing at the number one plug wire. I think ferox hit it one the head. Ill redo the flywheel and see what happens


Ya I think he did too, I was just unsure of what you were saying

#15 capn_r

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 04:09 PM

Your flywheel must be clocked wrong.  When the clutch was changed last, the flywheel was probably removed and reinstalled with the timing marks in the wrong location.  You could do one of two things:

 

1)  the best option is to remove the flywheel and install it correctly.

 

2) the second option is to try to transfer the timing marks to the place where the flywheel currently sits at #1 TDC.  You can either use a punch or some paint or other method of your choosing.  Obviously this approach is less accurate.

 

I would also recommend adjusting your valve lash if you don't have a hydro-lifter engine.

If I remember correctly the flywheel bolt pattern only allows the flywheel to bolt on one way.  I would do a "positive stop top dead center" check and see if the marks on the flywheel are accurate. If it is not correct possibly it has an EA82 flywheel on it.



#16 91 subaru

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 05:58 PM

I did a quick search on ea81 flywheels. General disorder posted that the flywheel only bolts up one way. Its still way off on the timing marks ( not even visible). It runs really crappy. Really rough and has a miss fire on # 2 cylinder. I sprayed starting fluid on all the vacuum lines in the engine bay and no rpm changes. I also sprayed around the intake and anything going into the intake. I swapped plugs around swapped wires around and rotated the disty cap. Still no changes. Anyone have any suggestions?

#17 mikaleda

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:03 PM

You said that the rotor pointed to the #1 spark plug when you had compression so I would think that capn_r got it right, for some reason someone could have put an ea82 flywheel in it.

Edit: I would check compression on number two cylinder.

Edited by mikaleda, 10 May 2013 - 06:04 PM.


#18 ferox

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:28 PM

If I remember correctly the flywheel bolt pattern only allows the flywheel to bolt on one way.  I would do a "positive stop top dead center" check and see if the marks on the flywheel are accurate. If it is not correct possibly it has an EA82 flywheel on it.

Technically, yes the bolt pattern goes on one way due to the spacing of the bolt holes, but they are close and a flywheel can be installed incorrectly if someone makes it fit.  I would also recommend checking everything else again before pulling the flywheel, but it shouldn't be that far off.  The only way for it to be that far off from #1 TDC is if it's not connected correctly.  The piston and rod are connected to the crank, the crank is connected to the flywheel, if they don't line up, there isn't anything in between.



#19 capn_r

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:35 PM

"Technically, yes the bolt pattern goes on one way due to the spacing of the bolt holes, but they are close and a flywheel can be installed incorrectly if someone makes it fit."

 

So are you saying someone found it easier to slot some holes than to line it up the way it was designed?

 

"I would also recommend checking everything else again before pulling the flywheel, but it shouldn't be that far off."

 

I gave a solution for checking the timing marks that doesn't involve pulling the flywheel where you would determine if the marks are on or off.

 

"The only way for it to be that far off from #1 TDC is if it's not connected correctly."

 

See above.

 

"The piston and rod are connected to the crank, the crank is connected to the flywheel, if they don't line up, there isn't anything in between."

 

????



#20 ferox

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:22 PM

Not trying to start an argument capn_r.  It's nothing personal.

 

"So are you saying someone found it easier to slot some holes than to line it up the way it was designed?"

 

Hell if I know.  Never underestimate the power of a PO to F spoob up.  I think to most likely scenario is that the car originally came with a 200 mm clutch disc flywheel and they went to 225 mm when they changed the clutch at some point in the lifetime of the car and they probably threw an ea82 flywheel on there.  They could have used an ea81 and had a hard time lining up the bolt holes and didn't use all the bolts, whatever, I don't know.  But if the timing marks don't line up when the #1 is at TDC then the flywheel is clocked wrong.

 

"I gave a solution for checking the timing marks that doesn't involve pulling the flywheel where you would determine if the marks are on or off."

 

I am not telling him to check the timing marks by pulling the flywheel.  I am saying if the timing marks don't line up then he can either make new ones or get in there and find out what's going on with the flywheel.  If the marks don't line up correctly and he wants to use the stock timing marks, then he's going to have to pull it and reinstall it in the correct position.

 

"????"

 

Even though the assembly formed by the piston, rod, crank, and flywheel rotate it's still a static mechanical connection.  Every time the #1 piston is at TDC the timing marks should show up every time, there's no variability.  There is nothing in between the connection of the piston and flywheel that would cause any variation between the timing marks and #1 TDC.  If the marks aren't in the right place at the right time, then the flywheel is clocked wrong.



#21 Turbone

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 11:49 PM

Instead of tearing things apart and throwing money at it, I would try timing it by ear. See if you can get rid of the backfire first, then make a few runs in it to fine tune it. Advance it till it starts to knock, then back it off 3-4deg.

If this doesnt get rid of the miss/backfire, I would pull off the valve cover to #2 cyl and check the exhaust valve springs.



#22 djellum

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 12:42 AM

couple of questions, just to make sure before you start tearing into it.

 

1) where is the vacuum canister on the distributor hooked up?  its easy for them to get run to manifold if someone who is used to other motors works on them.  if you set the timing right with the disty unhooked like you should, then hook it up to manifold it runs at like 30+ degrees.

 

2) have you checked the belts?

 

3) are you sure your on the number 1 piston?  not trying to be rude but its possible your on the wrong side of the car.  worth asking and checking if it saves time and money. 



#23 91 subaru

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 12:06 PM

So i decided to chase down the miss im havin. I got all the way down to pulling the driverside head. When i got it pulled i rolled the number two cylinder up and down. After i few times of not seeing anything wrong i decided to wipe the black off the top of the piston. When i did i noticed a tiny "hole". So i rolled number four cylider to the top and wiped it. No "hole". Can some one please shed some light on this?

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#24 91 subaru

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 10:55 PM

Found out the hole doesnt go all the way through. Putting it all back together probably tuesday. Then its vacuum line inspection. Id like to transfer timing marks but ill have to read up on that. Anyway thanks for the help guys.

#25 TomRhere

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 03:18 AM

I have ran EA82 flywheels on EA81 engines many times. Timing marks are not that far off once flywheel is bolted on.

 

Running EA82 flywheel on the EA81 engine moves the marks 6* further BTDC.

What is actually 0*TDC on the EA81 engine, now reads as 6*BTDC on the EA82 flywheel.

 

With a carbed engine, timing would be set to 14*

SPFI engine, timing would be set to 26*.

 

Currently running an EA81 engine in my '88 Wagon. SPFI swap done, XT6 flywheel (same timing marks as EA82), timing set at 26* and it's happy.

Ran a Webered EA81 in another '88 Wagon with Auto trans, timing was set at 14* to 16* depending on summer/winter.






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