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No start troubleshooting


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29 replies to this topic

#1 ShawnW

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:31 AM

I am at my wits end with the Vanagon Conversion I am doing.  I used a 2001 Outback EZ30 6 cylinder engine from an LLBEAN model.  Its been a long time since I asked a question here but I know you guys do these swaps too.

 

It will start on starter fluid but it will continue to run as well.  ONce its running its fine but as soon as you shut it off it won't restart without the carb cleaner helper.  

 

I think its the crank position sensor and the troubleshooting seems to confirm it but previously it had no fuel pressure and it would revent to the tank or atmosphere after 5 or less minutes the pressure would be 0.  Countless other problems but strangely enough no problems with my wiring or anything I did just consequential stuff.  I have solved the fuel pressure problem with a new pump and chucking the VW charcoal canister but still can't get it to run.  

In other words I probably had 5 problems before and might be down to this last one but the 4 previous ones have cooked my ego a little.

 

The FSM says the resistance of the crank sensor should be between 800-1300 K Ohms but this one registers 1850....but strangely enough the one on my backup engine also reads that.  I don't know its any good since I got the whole thing at the salvage yard out of a non running car and it would make sense that someone couldn't solve this on a car too but I keep wondering.  

 

Anybody else able to confirm that number from another FSM other than the 2001 model version?  I don't want to drop $100 on a sensor if it isn't going to solve it.  All the same the symptoms sure make sense.

 

Thanks!  



#2 Fairtax4me

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:33 AM

I didn't think the crank sensor affected fuel input. I always thought crank was spark and fuel was the cam sensor.
Either way it doesn't make much sense for a crank/cam sensor issue that it would start and run when using starter fluid, but won't start on its own. Sounds like lack of fuel to me. What does the ECT sensor say engine temp is?

Edited by Fairtax4me, 08 May 2013 - 03:34 AM.


#3 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:25 AM

after it does start, is there a momentary condition that seems like it was OVER fueled/flooded? You might try starting with the accelerator floored (clear flood procedure)

Is the fuel pump able to supply good volume? after it starts, will it rev and run well across all rpms?

I dunno where the cps is on my H6 but, some folks have found metal particles built up on the cps in H4s, clean them and the car runs better.

#4 NorthWet

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:29 AM

Sorry for not responding to the crank sensor impedance, but...

 

Do you have fuel line pressure after you first turn the ignition to "on"?  (As in, Does the fuel pump do its first cycle?)

 

If so, do "Noids" work on the EZ?  If so, have you tried them to see if the injectors are getting energized?



#5 ivans imports

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:12 AM

I had problems with one in buggy the ecu was not working had burnt a trace when i was working on wire harness the sensers are tough but ecu is very sensitive on that one and the wire coulours are all diferent than subarus are normaly. I do have a working 3.0 wire harness out if you need me to look at wires to see what they are for. I bet somthing is not conected in right spot or ecu thinks car is being stolen had a wire for anti theft ecu shutdown or imoblizer had to be fooled to run.Also is it posibble that you have no injector grounds or engine grounds ?



#6 Cougar

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:06 AM

Shawn,

Check to see if the ignition contact position of the ignition switch is working ok in the START position. Check for power on fuse 11, 13, or 18 of the dash panel while in the starting mode. Those are fuses on a WRX but I think they are the same for the Legacy also. If you don't have voltage on any of those fuses then the switch is the problem. Fuse 11 is tied to the fuel pump relay coil.

 

Since the engine is running ok once it is started I can't see how there would be a problem with any of the sensors. It appears to me that the fuel system isn't getting power to it in the START position.



#7 ShawnW

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 02:47 PM

I agree but logic kindof slipped out the window a long time ago.  ECU thinks the coolant temp is 77 degrees.  

I didn't think the crank sensor affected fuel input. I always thought crank was spark and fuel was the cam sensor.
Either way it doesn't make much sense for a crank/cam sensor issue that it would start and run when using starter fluid, but won't start on its own. Sounds like lack of fuel to me. What does the ECT sensor say engine temp is?



#8 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:18 PM

pretty sure this is gonna end up being a VW problem.

just sayin'

Edited by 1 Lucky Texan, 08 May 2013 - 03:19 PM.


#9 Cougar

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:35 PM

I will be able to check my service data when I get home on Friday to verify that those fuses positions that I mentioned earlier are correct. In the meantime I suggest you check them out just to see at least. Using the slits on top of the fuses to place your probe on makes an easy check.

 

You say the CTS makes the ECU think the coolant temp is 77 degrees. Is that when the engine is hot or just after startup? If that is when the engine is hot then replace the sensor, as long as there is no error code for it like a wiring problem.



#10 NorthWet

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:14 PM

...  ECU thinks the coolant temp is 77 degrees.  

Fahrenheit or Centigrade?



#11 presslab

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:05 PM

Did the engine start fine in the donor vehicle, or is this unknown?  No codes I assume?  Is the starter switch input connected to the ECU?  Do you see any RPMs on the scan tool while cranking?

 

There's always the diag stuff in the Subaru manual.  I attached something for a H6 3.0L Tribeca, maybe it's similar to yours.

 

 

Attached Files



#12 ivans imports

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:59 AM

i chased the bad ecu for months checked every wire every senser over and over changed ecu started right up



#13 ShawnW

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:07 AM

I already changed the ECU out.  Along with the MAP, Crank angle sensor and fuel pressure regulator.  The fuel pressure regulator did seem to help with the pressures but nothing changing on the starting side.



#14 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:18 AM

maybe a vacuum gauge would tell you if there's a massive vacuum leak or ? dunno how it would keep running though....

#15 ivans imports

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:37 AM

Have you checked the alarm ecu antitheft curcit it had to be powered or jumped cant remember i have two of those engines on ground and one harness that works. Do you have voltage on + side of injectors ? and have you tried a niod light to check for pulse ?



#16 ivans imports

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:42 AM

is it posibble you have feul lines backwards ?

#17 ShawnW

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 11:43 PM

No, car won't even run that way.  Crossed my mind and we swapped it and it doesn't run at all that way.



#18 Cougar

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 02:46 AM

Since this is a conversion I guess a lot of wiring changes have been made. I still suspect the ignition switch has a problem with the ignition contact getting power to the fuel pump while in the START position. Check to see if power is getting to the fuel pump relay, or fuse 13 if you are still using the original fuse panel.



#19 ivans imports

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:49 AM

i can look at my cutdown harness and check wires  for you is still hooked to motor so could even power it up i do have some pinouts for 3.0 but limeted. I do know the wiring is not same as other harness i have done



#20 ivans imports

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:32 AM

Had a look mine has a black with white stripe to ig realy power feed a green with red stripe to ig feed for relays and ecu a light green with grey dots is feul pump realy signal wire. The rest is burryed in tape but i cant  belive how small thiss harness is half the size of cut down 2.2 wire harness on mine the tcu vdcu and in cluster are gone just ecu and wires to engine rest gone and thiss engine ran two years offroad no problems. Pick the curcut that you think is giving you grief and i will check it for you.



#21 Fairtax4me

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:40 AM

If the CTS thinks its 77 degrees, but its really 35 degrees that would be an issue. It would be too lean at start.

Also interested to know if you've checked fuel pressure while cranking.

But it seems to run fine once started?
Are there ports in the timing cover to check the marks on the cam sprockets?

#22 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 12:27 PM

temporarily parallel wire/'jumper' the fuel pump to 12V, then try to start. Might tell you if it is a wiring issue in the switch.

#23 ShawnW

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 03:13 AM

Solved and special thanks to KingBobDole who came down to the shop and solved it in about 35 minutes.  Interrupt wire labeled wrong in diagram from Vanagon conversion company that makes the kit.  Worse yet they knew about it and revised it last year but didn't update me.  



#24 Cougar

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:30 PM

Glad you found the problem and thanks for the update. I assume that wire needed to be tied to the ignition switch START position to provide power to the fuel system and possibly other areas also.



#25 ShawnW

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 01:14 AM

Yeah, we ran it to the start signal and it started immediately and ever since.  I had cut the wire 1.5" from the end of the ECM plug and was able to wrap it around the starter wire right next to it in the plug and solder it in.  Embarrassing but at least it was especially easy to remedy once the solution was found.






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