Jump to content


Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, my lurker friend!

Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, an unparalleled Subaru community full of the greatest Subaru gurus and modders on the planet! We offer technical information and discussion about all things Subaru, the best and most popular all wheel drive vehicles ever created.

We offer all this information for free to everyone, even lurkers like you! All we ask in return is that you sign up and give back some of what you get out - without our awesome registered users none of this would be possible! Plus, you get way more great stuff as a member! Lurk to lose, participate to WIN*!
  • Say hello and join the conversation
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get automatic updates
  • Get your own profile and make new friends
  • Classifieds with all sorts of Subaru goodies
  • Photo hosting in our gallery
  • Meet other cool people with cool cars
Seriously, what are you waiting for? Make your life more fulfilling and join today! You and your Subaru won't regret it, we guarantee** it.

* The joy of participation and being generally awesome constitutes winning
** Not an actual guarantee, but seriously, you probably won't regret it!

Serving the Subaru Community since May 18th, 1998!

Guest Message by DevFuse
 

Photo
- - - - -

the dreaded torque bind? ..no not meeeeee


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#1 bgambino

bgambino

    Subaru Nut

  • Members
  • 587 posts
  • new york

Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:51 PM

1996 Outback wagon

picked up with 134,000

did ccr block, valvle job....all OEM replacement parts(T belt iders,WP, wires etc)

 

now 166,000

a few weeks back I noticed the AT temp light flash a few times,,,,but did not repeat often

Did the 16 flash a few times also

 

Now....AT light is doing the 16 flash at each start up

And can definitely feel the bind

Did a drain and refill...but my fluid has been changed by me regularly...so it drained nice and red and clean

 

I dont remember...is there a fuse to pull to temporarily relieve this??

 

And please tell me this is the DUTY C solenoid.....rather than true torque bind....

I dont know anything about replacing the duty c but remember reading here about it

 

I know there is much info here about this...dont have the time to look immediately...and I know there are kind souls here who are eager to chime in...thank u all

Is nipper, fairtax and eggleston still here????

 

 



#2 grossgary

grossgary

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 19,352 posts
  • WV

Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:18 PM

You have torque bind and in automatic transmissions there are two causes. At this point you want to determine which of the two is your problem (although some folks find it most palatable to replace both anyway so diagnosis may not matter)

 

(of course this test will only be adequate if the torque bind is constantly and known present...if it's intermittent then it could give some false indicators.

Put the FWD fuse in the fuse holder on the passengers side strut tower.

 

If the binding goes away then your clutches are sticking - and this is what changing the fluid often mitigates.

If it doesn't go away the Duty C solenoid is the cause.

 

More than likely my guess, with your good maintenance, it's a duty C solenoid, unlikely for the clutches to do this now after your good maintenance and proper tire maintenance.


Edited by grossgary, 10 May 2013 - 02:21 PM.


#3 1 Lucky Texan

1 Lucky Texan

    I read a lot about Subarus

  • Members
  • 4,304 posts
  • Texas

Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:35 PM

I know I keep suggesting this, but I can never recall the details but, a 96 may be old enough to have the aluminum wear 'area' in the clutch-pack system that was redesigned with a steel sleeve in later years.

OK, pre-98s. There's a teflon seal that leaks past a worn almunum case area that was changed to steel in 98-99 or so.

could be part of the problem, dunno, http://www.ultimates...wear#entry52371

http://www.ultimates...elp/#entry53865

http://www.ultimates...ear#entry428900

http://www.ultimates...ns/#entry557409

Edited by 1 Lucky Texan, 10 May 2013 - 02:46 PM.


#4 Fairtax4me

Fairtax4me

    Su bah roo'n

  • Gold Subscribers
  • 7,899 posts
  • Charlottesburg, VA

Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:06 PM

The flashing light indicates an electrical issue of which only the TCU is capable of diagnosing. (It cant really detect mechanical issues) That mixed with TB makes me think its a dead C solenoid.
The test is to put a fuse in the FWD fuse holder located on the passenger strut tower. The FWD light should illuminate ( or something of that nature) and the TB should be gone if the duty c is working properly.

I'd also pull the trans codes to see what it thinks is wrong.

#5 bgambino

bgambino

    Subaru Nut

  • Members
  • 587 posts
  • new york

Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:14 PM

thanks guy (sorry gary...I should have mentioned u too!)

 

I'll try the fuse tomorrow

 

Is it safe to drive around with the fuse in place (assuming the TB disappears) for a month or 2?

 

How tough is replacing the Duty C?

Cost? of parts?

 

thanks guys

Love this board



#6 grossgary

grossgary

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 19,352 posts
  • WV

Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:32 PM

you can drive indefinitely with the fuse in place, doesn't matter.  Folks do it all the time, many of us have installed our own controllers for the duty c, etc.

 

How tough to replace - it's not that bad technically.  It's a pain the butt working from under the car and there is like some small pieces/alignment stuff to keep track of but it's not a big pile-o-parts either.  Nothing the board can't help with.

 

Parts - memory it's like $100 (very roughly) for the solenoid and $150 for clutches.  So take your pick, i'm sure you can google more accurate prices.

 

A Subaru dealer in Atlanta actually installed a friends very inexpensively...i posted the price here last year or so, I was surprised how reasonably priced they were.  Doubt they'll give us good rates up here where they gotta mess with rusty exhaust to get too it!



#7 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,512 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 11 May 2013 - 12:20 AM

Well you can drive with the fuse in place untill the Duty C burns out, which may be never, or can be already burned out.

 

If you did all that engine work yourself, you can handle a clutch pack and solenoid.



#8 bgambino

bgambino

    Subaru Nut

  • Members
  • 587 posts
  • new york

Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:58 PM

Nipper...you're still here!!!

 

okay all....here's what I found out

 

I put fuse in FWD holder and still had the TB (BTW...did someone say there should be a FWD lite on the dash console? there isn't)

So...I found the directions (pasted below)---did both and got 2-4...Duty C solenoid

 

SO.....am I correct that it is NOT good to continue driving like this?  It cant be right??

I will put my 2002 Legacy GT on the road if not.....

This sounds like a project.....

 

I did some searching on this updated site (its new to me since I have not been lurking in quite some time).......and it seems that the search function

is not as "friendly" as before (I did the advanced search too)

It just did not bring up as much as I thought it should have-----I dont know....maybe its just me

 

Would there be a sticky perhaps that I could go to to see a detailed list of instructions to do this job...with pics??? Including the pitfalls that can happen during the job?

 

And Gary=-----what are those clutches? I should do this since I am in there?

Definitely a job I am going to do on my back this summer....sigh

 

Here is the procedure I found  for checking the TCU code---



 

You probably have
a bad duty-c solenoid. Check the TCU codes - if the AT Temp light flashes 16
times on startup then you have stored TCU codes. There is a 6 pin black
connector above the gas pedal and two grounding wires wrapped into the harness
directly above that. Insert one grounding pin into the center pin on the black
connector (blue with yellow trace typically), then follow this process:
1: Turn ignition on, apply brake, and place gear selector in 1. Turn ignition
off.

2: Turn ignition on.

3: Move selector to 2.

4: Move selector to 3.

5: Move selector to D.

6: Depress accelerator pedal slightly.

7: Read morse codes flashes on the AT Temp light. 24 will indicate a bad
duty-c. These are "stored" history codes from previous drive cycles.


8: Turn ignition off, then back on.

9: Move selector to 3.

10: Move selector to 2.

11: Move selector to 1.
12: Depress accelerator pedal slightly.
13: Read codes again. Codes given here are current faults active in the TCU on
the current drive cycle.


 



#9 grossgary

grossgary

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 19,352 posts
  • WV

Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:41 AM

Nice hit getting the codes, those things are tricky to get to flash, i've been skunked on many Subaru's.

Correct - shouldn't be driving with torque bind.  Additional strain on drivetrain components - axles, ujoints, transmission bits, etc.   But you can still drive the car and save yourself the hassle of switching cars, registration, taxes, tags, insurance, batteries, brake rotors sitting....

 

Simply remove the rear half of the driveshaft and run it in FWD that way, it's very easy.  Leave the FWD fuse in place just in case the Duty C decides to work again (but it won't).  It's only 4 12mm bolts on each end of the shaft and yank it out.  Picture of the front and rear sections here, they are unbolted in this pic, the second picture from the left shows the long section that you'll unbolt.  it bolts to the rear diff and the shorter section in that ebay listing.  the shorter one stays in place, don't remove it. 

 

http://www.ebay.com/...4575f07&vxp=mtr

 

There is the duty C solenoid and a clutch pack in there - some people opt to replace it all while it's apart - the Duty C and the clutches. Up to you, very roughly doubles the cost.



#10 bgambino

bgambino

    Subaru Nut

  • Members
  • 587 posts
  • new york

Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:13 AM

THANKS GARY.....!!!

I guess this will be a summer project

 

Anyone got info or a link to doing the duty C and clutches in there?



#11 mikec03

mikec03

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 277 posts
  • greenfield, wi

Posted 14 May 2013 - 12:19 PM

You might find this DIY interesting.  This shows a trans where the transfer hub is broken off.  This is  probably an example of what happens when  you drive a subaru with a defective duty C solinoid and torque bind.

 

 

http://www.subaruout...ansmission.html



#12 Shaunald

Shaunald

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10 posts
  • Franklinville, NY

Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:02 PM

This was very helpful reading this forum. I to have the at oil temp light flashing except i lost response from my transmission. I also have put the fuse in the fwd spot and nothing shows on the dash. But what is the correct amp size for the fuse for the fwd?? I will definately try the code thing tomororrow after work. :) Thank you guys.



#13 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,512 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:17 PM

The fuse holder only completes a circuit that carrys a 12v signal to the TCU. It is not really doing the work of holding the solenoid open. Any spare fuse in the car will do (in the fusebox)



#14 Shaunald

Shaunald

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10 posts
  • Franklinville, NY

Posted 18 May 2013 - 03:00 PM

Alright. Well i tried a fuse and got no light. I replaced the transmission filter and fluid. I now have response from my transmission. Except it only goes forward. Drive, nuetral, reverse, 1,2,3, all go forward. What is going on here??

#15 grossgary

grossgary

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 19,352 posts
  • WV

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:17 PM

what does it do in park?

does it show the correct gear that selector is put in? (just because you move it to DRIVE doesn't mean the transmission is in drive if the linkage is hosed somehow)

does it drive normally at all - or it's obviously slow/messed up?
i'm wondering if the shift linkage is shot and it



#16 Shaunald

Shaunald

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10 posts
  • Franklinville, NY

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:36 PM

I Have had someone shift the car while i watched it at the transmission and i physilically grabbed it and shifted it into drive, reverse, etc. every gear is now drive. in park it is parked. nuetral is drive as well. but when i took my tranny pan off i found a clip in it. and it kind of drive like crap. it felt like ithad slippage in it and other junk. not like it was when the gears works, i showed someone the clip and they said they recognize it as a reverse band clip?



#17 grossgary

grossgary

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 19,352 posts
  • WV

Posted 19 May 2013 - 11:57 AM

interesting, doesn't sound good.  post a picture off the clip, though i don't know what the bands look like, someone will.



#18 presslab

presslab

    Subaru Nut

  • Members
  • 835 posts
  • N. California

Posted 20 May 2013 - 03:44 PM

These trannys have a clutch for reverse and not a band.  The only band is for gears 2/4.  It's possible your part is the clip that helps keep the manual valve on the selector shaft.

 

With the pan off, have someone shift the trans while you watch.  You will see the arm inside moving.  The end of the arm should be slipped into a U-channel on a long rod (manual valve) that goes into the valve body.  Can you see that rod moving in and out while moving the shifter?



#19 Shaunald

Shaunald

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10 posts
  • Franklinville, NY

Posted 20 May 2013 - 07:14 PM

i have had someone shift it through the selector. it an automatic car :/ and when it was off i noticed a rod that kept moving out and id push it into the valve body for it to just spit fluid out at me.



#20 presslab

presslab

    Subaru Nut

  • Members
  • 835 posts
  • N. California

Posted 20 May 2013 - 07:58 PM

They call that rod a "manual valve" because it's attached to the part you move by hand manually.  In the absence of your pics I've taken a few of a trans I have apart here.  Is the clip you found like the one in the photo?  How about the rod in the valve body that moves out, is that the one in the other photo?

 

Attached Files



#21 msmithmmx

msmithmmx

    Subaru Nut

  • Members
  • 668 posts
  • West Grove, PA

Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:27 AM

Hello.  I have a 98 OBW 230K . I am not saying this the right thing to do but I have been driving around with that light blinking for 2 to 3 years.  I have already started the OBW overhaul and I am planning on replacing the clutch pack and duty-c solenoid this summer.  I am concerned about doing it because after several searches it never seems to end well when people have tried this.  I think there is an exact orientation  that things need to be in when placing the rear of the transmission back on that no one gets right.



#22 Anon.II

Anon.II

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 27 posts
  • Falls Church

Posted 22 May 2013 - 12:36 PM

> 98 OBW 230K . I am not saying this the right thing to do

> but I have been driving around with that light blinking for 2 to 3 years.

 

+1

'91 Legacy L+ wagon 210k : for me, I think that the first such

*felt* symptom of this occurred maybe a decade ago; it became

more noticeable only later, and I see that "POWER LIGHT FLASHES"

in my notes for 2006, and transmission was flushed; it has been

highly infrequent over the duration.  Sometimes I'd feel it and see

the 16flashes after driving a mile to a store, then not feel it on the return;

sometimes it will be months between symptoms.

 

Now, I'm looking at an exhaust-system replacement (est. $1,100)

prospect, or ... ?

 

--Anon.II



#23 Shaunald

Shaunald

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10 posts
  • Franklinville, NY

Posted 29 May 2013 - 02:29 PM

yes that clip in your pic is the one i found in my pan, but the rod does not look the same, the rod that i see come out does not have the groove in it and is on the back side of the tb on the passenger side.



#24 presslab

presslab

    Subaru Nut

  • Members
  • 835 posts
  • N. California

Posted 29 May 2013 - 02:43 PM

yes that clip in your pic is the one i found in my pan, but the rod does not look the same, the rod that i see come out does not have the groove in it and is on the back side of the tb on the passenger side.

 

It's probably the same rod, just the other end of it.  Push the rod all the way forward with a pen or something that you can stick in the hole.

 

For some reason it seems like your manual valve has become disconnected from the shift lever.  I'm not sure why, you'll need to figure that out so it doesn't happen again.  It's normally not easy to reattach that rod, you'll have to drop the valve body.



#25 Shaunald

Shaunald

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10 posts
  • Franklinville, NY

Posted 29 May 2013 - 05:22 PM

i did not see anything disconnected. but on the flat spot behind the clip half it is warn darn where the piston hits on it? im not to sure exactly what the clip is called because i am thinking i need to find one online due to i can not find mine now. >:( do you have any pics of the vb with that clip attached??
 






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users